For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: will the just-passed bailout bill avert the looming financial meltdown?
I hate being so serious on a Saturday, but Friday's stock market reaction to the bailout passing the House did not evoke confidence. Those that are watching the credit markets know that there just is no major lending going on right now between financial institutions as no one seems to trust claims made by either borrowers or lenders.
On Friday, Gov. Schwarzenegger asked the Fed for $7 billion because California can't borrow the funds it needs to meet its obligations until state personal income and property taxes begin to flow in. This likely will start being a problem in other states as well as counties, cities, towns, and municipalities across the fruited plain.
With this in mind, is the bailout a bandaid on a severed artery, and things are going to get much worse before they get better? Is this all spiraling into a total, global financial meltdown leading to a massive depression? Is there anything that can be done? And, for the libertarians that have been saying that government should do nothing to assist these financial institutions, should all states, cities, towns, municipalities, and companies that rely on short-term financing to manage their accounts payable be also allowed to go bankrupt due to the malfeasance and stupidity of those responsible for this financial meltdown? If inaction is desirable to teach Wall Street a lesson, what is being taught to all the entities and individuals that have played by the rules and done absolutely nothing wrong but are going to suffer as a result of the actions of a few?
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You are correct NS
October 4, 2008 - 09:24 ET by BlondeWhen you call this bailout "a bandaid on a severed artery". And you are correct again when you say this is a depressing topic for a lovely morning.
But your question is exactly to the point. As for the local governmental entities...consider this. In the run-up of the housing market, property values (and therefore assessments) soared. Here locally, IIRC, the revenues increased for the county share of property taxes by about $1.5B in four years. Which, of course, was spent like a drunken sailor on new programs, etc.
So this is a double edged sword that inflicted the arterial wound.
It's going to get very, very ugly.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
hey blonde -- as you know my
October 4, 2008 - 09:30 ET by Jack Bauerhey blonde -- as you know my cousin bought a new development apartment as a rental investment near you last year, so what can he look forward to in local taxes?
Depends, Jack
October 4, 2008 - 09:45 ET by BlondeFlorida just passed a law protecting "equity" and making it portable. But that's for owners who are occupying, not investing.
I'd imagine many states are the same way, affording owner occupied properties a homestead exemption of some sort.
Sorry...really can't say, but rental investments are tricky.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Franks and Fannie
October 4, 2008 - 09:49 ET by well99http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432501,00.html
Some might find this interesting.It is from the 90s but Barney Franks and "spouse" should be question on it.
Need a discount on your morgage talk to Dodd and Conrad maybe they can help.
http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/top-5/2008/06/12/Countrywide-Loan-Scandal
----
October 4, 2008 - 14:02 ET by dahliatraversOr Rangel for interest-free mortgages.
Yup lol
October 4, 2008 - 18:04 ET by well99Rangel will help with taxes too.
LOL w99... That was a
October 4, 2008 - 18:14 ET by bigtimerLOL w99...
That was a good one...
Seems nobody on our side of the aisle has decided to make this a big issue msm wise, therefore political pressure on what happens to him in congress, let alone later ...
I give up ...
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
"Moral" meltdown
October 4, 2008 - 09:48 ET by iveseenitallThe financial meltdown is just a sympton of the a greater one: the moral meltdown of America. If we go under, it will be the result of a moral collapse, the likes of which have destroyed many a nation throughout history. Trust is now gone. Lies are accepted as commomplace. We, not too long ago, threw up our hands in the belief that nothing could be done to stop the lack of discipline in so many aspects of life in America. The "liberals" convinced millions of people that nothing was worth fighting for and that "morality" was a myth for the few "suckers" in the world. Ironically, it was in the name of "freedom" that political correctness took hold and destroyed the truth. And until we return to seeking the truth, we will keep sliding to toward the nadir. Look to your children and weep.
Never,Never trust a "liberal"
. . . . the moral meltdown
October 4, 2008 - 10:39 ET by DontFeedTheTrolls. . . . the moral meltdown of America.
Ya got that right:
I could (sadly) go on.
D
Keep the ILLEGALS out, join NumbersUSA to send free faxes to your reps.
I think that the real
October 4, 2008 - 12:53 ET by BDI think that the real problem is that Liberalism demands to live lives without consequense.
Wanna work as a performance artist downtown boston where you spin basketballs decorated with pictures of Bush, Cheney etc? Normal consequense says you are gonna be poor and live a tough life. But liberalism seeks to insulate idiots who make such decisions from the consequense of these decisions by giving them grants, welfare, medical coverage etc.
Wanna have lots of unprotected sex with numerous men who you barely know? THat is okay, Liberalism dictates that any life created by these bad decisions can be murdered to protect you from this consequense. ALso, if you get HIV from these actions, liberalism dictates that your friends and neighbors pay for your expensive medication.
Wanna take lots of mind altering drugs and become a wastoid? Normal consequense is that you swiftly become a loser and are ostracized from society. Liberalism seeks to prevent this by providing welfare and social rehabilitation in all forms to these losers.
Although I was against the
October 4, 2008 - 09:46 ET by Captain RepusAlthough I was against the bailout plan initially, I am even more disgusted with the final result, bailout II which is bailout I on steroids.
Hey, John Keating5 McCain, what happened to your 'make them famous' idea on pork barrell legislation? You could have gained a lot of ground if you had gone against the bill and NAMED THE IDIOTS who got the $150 billion of pork added to the already horrible bill.
All of our retirement plans have already tanked, so I think we should have killed the bailout bill and gone ahead and continued to take the rest of our medicine now instead of bailing out the hedge fund crooks and straddling my kids with the bill.
My suggestion is to vote out of office every single member of congress, D and R next month and peel off all 100 senators 1/3 at a time. At the presidential level we have no choice but to elect one of these two morons, the communist or captain senility, so my suggestion is to just not vote for either and give the winner a message of zero support by the citizens.
Off topic but check this
October 4, 2008 - 09:47 ET by TheAssessorOff topic but check this link to http://www.ibdeditorials.com 'Welcome to Camp Obama' ... wish BO'R, Sean, and Rush would pick up on it. Rename it Camps for Psychopaths..
"I have a bracelet too" ..Barak Obama, Political Sociopath
Well maybe Sean could go
October 4, 2008 - 09:59 ET by well99http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/campobamail
Scary.Here is the Camp with videos.
http://campobama.blogspot.com/
It's so sad to see
October 4, 2008 - 10:23 ET by TheAssessorThanks for the link. It's so sad to see them doing this to our children
..Barak Obama, Toxic Drip
It is sad.I will never
October 4, 2008 - 11:06 ET by well99It is sad.I will never understand it.
Is this the result?
October 4, 2008 - 10:36 ET by tazzCan't wait to see this on CNN http://www.youtube.c...
And on
October 4, 2008 - 10:47 ET by TheAssessorAnd on and on it goes, drip, drip, drip..eating away at the integrity and fabric of a moral society
Barak Obama, Political Sociopath - Toxic Drip
And the really scary thing
October 4, 2008 - 11:51 ET by motherbeltAnd the really scary thing is that he has almost unlimited money to implement all this.
Obama said he would take public funding if McCain did. Then he backed out, and blamed McCain!!
“It’s not an easy decision, and especially because I support a robust system of public financing of elections,” Obama said.
<insert hysterical laughter>
“But the public financing of presidential elections as it exists today is broken, and we face opponents who’ve become masters at gaming this broken system.”
Well what the hell is this, if it's not a broken campaign system? He buys a TV channel, he organizes his own version of the Hitler Youth, etc.
Is this the "new kind of politics" he is preaching?
He talked about having a "Citizen Army"...well here is the beginning of
it. Who knows what "use" he will put his "campers" to when he is
President?
Don't look for the MSM to expose anything, and it will just get worse if he's elected. The love affair that media have with him and the lengths they will go to to cover up for him and protect him will make their infatuation with Clinton look like the Hatfield/McCoy feud!
Like 32 years ago . . .
October 4, 2008 - 09:48 ET by Gat New YorkThis needed to be done because it was caused by government recklessness with the banking system and mortgages - no reforms were put in place to reign in fannie and freddie. This will bring some confidence back into credit markets so we don't fall immediately into a major recession with failing businesses.
But it is only a band-aid.
The bigger concern should be will we be taking what is still now a normal economic downturn and turn it into what Jimmy Carter did to that.
Because of the first oil crisis in '74 we had unprecendented inflation but that came way down a year later. Carter took over and reversed that. Under Jimmy Carter inflation rose from about 5% to 11% and normal interest rates were as high as 16%-18%. The combination of those, a prolonged recession and no job growth was called Stagflation.
Democratic Party and Obama policies could take this manageable downturn and make it far worse by raising income taxes and capital gains taxes at a time when both should be reduced to stimulate consumer spending and investment for job creation.
This is as it was in 1976-80 a now crisis of confidence. During his administration Carter showed no leadership and was trying to have the federal government micro-manage the economy rather than allowing free market stimulus to reboot the economy.
If Obama is elected we will be in for a very tough 4 years.
Need to restore credit?
October 4, 2008 - 09:50 ET by KC BeachI actually heard one of the Congressional Democrat mental midgets yesterday say that now that they passed the bailout bill people would be able to get a loan to pay their bills. Seems to me that is what got us into this situation.
Common Sense, KC
October 4, 2008 - 10:13 ET by iveseenitallPlease don't confuse people with so much common sense, KC. Many Americans can't handle it.
NEVER,NEVER traust a "liberal"
Bailout, my ar$e.
October 4, 2008 - 10:23 ET by R D HelmGeez, now I know how Churchill felt in the 1930's. Its lonely in the wilderness.
This was not a bailout. This was the government assuming control of our economic system, control that I do not believe will ever be relinquished.
The bailout bill also gives the Internal Revenue Service new authority
to conduct undercover operations. It would immunize the IRS from a
passel of federal laws, including permitting IRS agents to run
businesses for an extended sting operation, to open their own personal
bank accounts with U.S. tax dollars, and so on.
Anybody want to tell me again why the FairTax is, I mean, was such a bad idea?
Thanks to an entire herd of RINOs, Henry Paulson, a D E M O C R A T, is now the Dollar Dictator. God only knows what this clown is going to do with his unprecedented "authority."
Scared yet?
The next several months are going to be most interesting.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
If you have to call your idea "fair"...
October 5, 2008 - 20:00 ET by UnsaneAnybody want to tell me again why the FairTax is, I mean, was such a bad idea? One, because if you have to call your proposal, ANY proposal, "fair", there is a 99.99999999999999% chance that it is anything BUT "fair".
"Fair" is relative. If we could all stop using that word in any political discussion we'd all be better served because of it.
That, and I find the idea of paying 31+% (I am including TX sales tax) on goods and services I buy abhorrent, and if I am confronted with that, I react by slamming my wallet shut. So will milions of others. The only reason to impose a consumption tax is to cut down or discourage consumption. That's not a good idea in an economy where the consumer is king.
Gimmee the Forbes tax plan from 1996 any day.
Whoever casts a vote for Obama-Biden is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against them is nothing more than a moral coward.
Palin/Jindal 09
October 4, 2008 - 10:00 ET by Paul GNuff said...
California
October 4, 2008 - 10:01 ET by BKeyserI think the Gov oughta ask some of his fellow "patriotic" hollywood friends to help contribute to the cash flow crisis they've got going over there. Anyone question how a state with so many well off residents (as of 2006, Ca. ranks 12th in the nation in per capita income-which is pretty amazing given the vast number of poor that the state shelters) could be overspending so drastically? Maybe, just maybe, they coddle to a large number of illegals?... Maybe the state coffers are misspent?... Maybe I don't want to contribute from my perch on the other coast... Maybe actors shouldn't go on strike... Maybe it costs too much to be a sanctuary city... Maybe their representatives in Congress aren't doing their jobs for their constituants... Just hard to believe RHINO Arnie is asking the rest of us for help to BAIL OUT CALIFORNIA????!!!!
Sorry, no thanks.
Impossible Promises
October 4, 2008 - 10:17 ET by billbLook at all the major companies ie: GM,etc that made impossible promises to the unions. They're all going in the tank and looking for bailouts. California, the bluest of blue states is bankrupt as areNJ,NY. Most blue states are in trouble. Not to worry, the promises that they made to teachers,firemen,garbage collectors WILL be kept! They'll just raise taxes and collect from you and me. Your local tax collector is responsible for much of the real estate meltdown in the first place. They couldn't wait to extort more taxes from the this windfall. I feel strongley that many people being foreclosed on now are the victims of their local taxes. My home is down 15%. In January my taxes will be increased to pay for cost of living increases of the afore mentioned "public servants!" Now California has figured out how to get bailed out not from their own residents, but by everyone in the country!
George Soros
October 4, 2008 - 10:20 ET by iveseenitallGeorge Soros stuck his ugly head out for a few days to see how the weather is. Then he crawled back into his hole. He is the guy behind this government takeover of our once "free" markets. If Barry is elected, watch for him to surface and begin to "change" America. Beware.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
I understand he threw a
October 4, 2008 - 10:31 ET by Clear thinkerI understand he threw a huge party last night. Everyone got very drunk very fast because of all the toasting that was done to the name of Marx.
Liberals Annoyed at Sarah Being Annoyed
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
A chance to decriminalize prostitution in San Francisco
October 4, 2008 - 10:20 ET by shawn228I live outside of San Francisco so I cannot vote but wish I could. There will be a chance to vote to decriminalize prostitution in San Francisco
Unfortunately there is little chance of it passing even in a liberal city like SF. They are very gay friendly but the consider prostitution sexist, God forbid
If it were up to me, I would legalize it and tax the heck out of it and use that money to get Cali out of its financial hole.
Real life video games are cool
shawn, LOL, I hate to tell ya, but California is too far gone...
October 4, 2008 - 10:26 ET by R D Helm...even for that.
But hey, glad to see you are such a civic-minded resident. :-)
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
LMAO Dave,
October 4, 2008 - 10:43 ET by shawn228......I would legalize and tax pot as well, see I'm always looking out for others :-)
I also 95 percent agree with your new tagline. Only 95 percent because of that minor medical thang ;-)
Real life video games are cool
The United States of Holland
October 4, 2008 - 21:58 ET by UnsaneYou would turn the United States into the Netherlands and thus make it a new member of my world-famous Going Nowhere Club. The world would blow us by, but hey, at least we get to internally rot and encourage crime and the treatment of women as property and objects. Not to mention make people's very lives fit into our schedules for our CONVENIENCE...
Whoever casts a vote for Obama-Biden is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against them is nothing more than a moral coward.
California is too far gone...
October 4, 2008 - 11:26 ET by JDWCorrect, CA must legalize lower taxes, less spending, and no illegals. Then they can work their way down the ladder to scraps such as red light districts.
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
Illegals are already too entrenched in the state.
October 4, 2008 - 12:51 ET by bloolooThey aren't going anywhere. Stopping them from coming here is nearly impossible. Even the mayor of LA is for open borders. East LA has a population that is 96% hispanic. ER's in California hospitals are closing daily due to lack of payment by illegals. Schools are overcrowded with their children (who, btw, get free lunches, tuition, day-care, etc...). The average drain on the Calif. economy is over $1 Billion a year (and they ain't all here to pick tomatoes and mow our lawns!).
"I might be movin' to Montana soon..." - FZ
blooloo, maybe we could sell California to Mexico!
October 4, 2008 - 12:53 ET by R D HelmLOL-I bet most residents wouldn't even notice a difference.
-I'm just kidding, shawn. :-)
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Most Americans
October 4, 2008 - 13:13 ET by JDWAre not bi-lingo
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
what we oughta do...
October 4, 2008 - 13:33 ET by blooloo...is annex Mexico; make it a possession like Puerto Rico. It would give us access to a lot of resources (and sorta pay us back for what the 'illegals' have taken from us already). I wouldn't mind them eliminating the border if I was able to buy property in Mexico (you can't unless you are a Mex. citizen). If it was a 2 way street, so to speak, I could see buying some beachfront property down near Belize/Cancun and retiring in the sunshine while sipping margaritas. But, that ain't ever gonna happen! Besides, the corruption in their government makes our congress look like a bunch of school girls! (But, can you imagine what our congress would do if they had a chance to get their hands on Mexico? It boggles the mind!)
shawn -- most prostitution
October 4, 2008 - 10:43 ET by Jack Bauershawn -- most prostitution is controlled by vicious violent gangs who take poor abused girls/women, addict them to drugs, and use repeated violence to cower them into an inhuman trade.
Legalizing prostitution will not change this degenerate trafficking and the destruction of the very spark of life that makes us human.
Just go to any country where prositution is either legal, or the authorities simply turn a blind eye.
The trouble is, many people seem to think prostitution is all Pretty Woman, fancy call girls taking $500 a trick; when for most of its pathetic young victims, it's more like Taken, the movie starring Liam Neeson.
legalize prostitution
October 4, 2008 - 10:52 ET by shawn228I agree with you Jack, Prostitution is not a victimless crime but it could be. If fully legalized and run by the government, we can take the pimps out of it and the girls/guys that are doing it, can be in a safe environment and will not be as scared to go to the authorities because it is no longer illegal.
If the government took about 20 percent of the profits, it could help get Cali out of its financial hole "figuratvely speaking ;-)"
Real life video games are cool
shawn, if the voters grow a brain and throw Barney out...
October 4, 2008 - 11:37 ET by R D Helm...maybe you guys can convince to come out to California and run the government-prostitution operation.
LOL-After all, he has prior experience.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Geez Dave
October 4, 2008 - 11:41 ET by shawn228Don't you realize that if this were to decriminalize gay prostitution, it would pass easily, but we are talking about mostlyfemales here, so it is obviously sexist ;-)
Real life video games are cool
shawn,
October 4, 2008 - 11:57 ET by R D HelmRight now, I am just trying to figure out how I am going to make my $230 car payment on the 12th. I don't have it.
I got canned on Wednesday in such a way that I doubt I can even qualify for unemployment, and all three of my credit cards are maxed out.
What is more, my last paycheck, should I even get one, will be around $50. Maybe.
Forked is me.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Aw crap Dave
October 4, 2008 - 12:01 ET by shawn228I'm sorry to hear that. The auto business is in a serious downturn right now, hopefully it will pick up again.
If you can find the capital, you should open up your own restaurant. I think you would be awesome at that.
Real life video games are cool
Yeah, shawn, that was what I said, kind of. :-)
October 4, 2008 - 12:25 ET by R D HelmThe really bad thing about all this is that I was just beginning to get back into some semblance of normality after getting laid-off twice in 2002 and getting driven out of the LS bizz last summer.
What is worse, the job market around here is virtually non-existent right now.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
LOL!
October 4, 2008 - 12:02 ET by Copperhead Ridge"financial hole."
Interesting choice of words considering the topic, especially to a Southerner because we soften that ending "l" sound.
Karl Marx must be very
October 4, 2008 - 10:28 ET by Clear thinkerKarl Marx must be very happy today. I understand that all statues of Marx across Russia have suddenly gotten a huge grin on the face.
Liberals Annoyed at Sarah Being Annoyed
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
OS
October 4, 2008 - 11:18 ET by JDWAnyone use Linux?
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
will it renew the illegal immigration debate?
October 4, 2008 - 11:22 ET by mom_roxPresumably 24/7 cable news will now focus more on California's financial situation. Perhaps someone will connect the dots and discuss the illegal immigration impact on the state's finances.
Maybe, that will put illegal immigration back on the national scene.
regarding Barack Obama's tax plan - I never received a job from a poor person.
Ha mom!
October 4, 2008 - 11:32 ET by BlondeI just put in my two cents...I got polled and picked illegal immigration as my main issue just to throw a kink into their data. They were pushing "payback" for this mess we're in.
Excellent point.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Stop 2
October 4, 2008 - 11:32 ET by JDWFor Palin after Michigan.
I never received a job from a poor person. ... Very good
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
mom,
October 4, 2008 - 12:11 ET by R D HelmI would like to find out just exactly what percentage of mortgages that are in the tank are held by illegals.
I bet it is a considerable percentage.
Bet it doesn't get reported, either.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
R.D.
October 4, 2008 - 13:00 ET by bloolooOn the local radio show with Roger Hedgecock (former mayor of San Diego) he's been claiming that in congressman Tom Tancredo's district alone there are 10,000 foreclosures attributed to illegals walking away from their homes. I don't know how many are here in So.Cal., but, if you drive through some neighborhoods in the poorer parts of San Diego you'll see 1 out of 3 or 4 houses are empty/vacant/abandoned...
CA Pinheads
October 4, 2008 - 13:29 ET by JDWMust initiate ordinances which prohibit landlords/realtors from renting/selling to illegals
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
They tried that locally...
October 4, 2008 - 13:41 ET by blooloo...and the ACLU and others came out of the wood work claiming it was racist, etc., etc. Frankly, I'd love to see it happen, but, I doubt it ever will. Here's the story...
"I might be movin' to Montana soon..." - FZ
Racist
October 4, 2008 - 14:24 ET by JDWThe illegals are illegal... no rights! How is that racist?
Anyone with half a brain realizes the connection with terrorists.
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
blooloo,
October 4, 2008 - 22:08 ET by R D HelmThat is what I figured.
Wow, 10,000 homes in one district! No wonder home values are plummeting.
Sadly, I only get to hear Roger's show when he fills in for Rush. He does a good show.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
I can't wait for the next epsode of NewsBusted.
October 4, 2008 - 11:33 ET by R D HelmEvery time I scroll to the top of a page in here, I see that creepy Paulson guy glaring at me. :-O
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
I remember sitting in my
October 4, 2008 - 11:41 ET by Paul GI remember sitting in my lounge chair in '92 listening to Rush...He was saying "dont listen to the polls".."alls not lost"..."Republicans are gonna win".... "there's alot of you(us) out there...
Republicans didnt win...All WAS lost...and becuz of Rush, I didnt listen to the polls... FF to '08 What's he saying? Now don't get me wrong..I'm a 100% Rush fan..And thank God for him I havent slashed my throat..... yet. BUT, even after his monolouge on thursday, I feel like a passenger on the Titanic...sink with the ship, or jump.
We can put or heads in the sand, and I know I'm the 'downer' on this site but, like DFTT said,
I might as well murder someone and have FREE healthcare, FREE housing, Free dental. Free meals, and FREE gym membership. AND...not have to work another day in my life.
Although I would have to give up cigs.
btw, I'm from Chicago and I have this attitude because I'm used to saying "wait till next year"
PATRIOTIC
October 4, 2008 - 11:48 ET by billbAccording to Biden, we must be patriotic and bail out California! Wait a minute...did he say patriotic or idiotic?
VOTE EVERY D&R OUT THAT VOTED FOR THIS!
California needs your help
October 4, 2008 - 12:08 ET by RHRobinsonMDNow, now, BKeyser let me explain this to you:
As a Californian *hides*, I must stand up for our Governator and his Liberal policies. We can't be expected to pay our own way given the huge disadvantages we face with our poor climate, natural resources that if tapped would destroy the planet, center of a struggling entertainment industry (No one wants to pay to see our crap) and high tech industries (relocating at an accelerating pace to other less enlightened states). Those of you away from the left coast don't appreciate how much state money goes to care for and protect our massive illegal immigrant "guests". It ain't cheap to take the high moral ground and be a de facto sanctuary state, but we can do it with YOUR help.
We led the way passing a bond measure that devotes $3 billion to human embryonic stem-cell experiments (which BushHitler wouldn't do) and comprises the biggest-ever state-supported scientific- giveaway- research program in the country (at least until we did that whole Global Warming thingy - THAT'S gonna hurt us). That was money we just didn't have so we had to borrow it. I don't know if you have tried borrowing money lately, but turns out it ain't cheap.
Keep in mind that we are leading all you other wuss states in the Long March to conquer Global Warming by destroying most of our indigenous industry and business and driving the rest out of state. You should kiss our feet.
Our cities spend millions on tree sitters that leads to many reactionary taxpayers being disgruntled and taking it out on the Dear Leaders. This is dangerous, and could lead to voter revolt (unless you bail us out)
.
Our state has the most business unfriendly climate in this great nation with our Patriotic high taxes and "comsumer friendly" massive red tape and regulation. This has unfortunately led to us being somewhat financially embarassed. Temporarily. Just this once. Sort of.
TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) - Robert Heinlein, "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress"
First, what is it you want us to pay taxes for? Tell me what I get and perhaps I'll buy it. - Robert Heinlein
Dr. Robinson
October 4, 2008 - 12:42 ET by BlondeSo if I'm reading this correctly, you have the most brilliant politicians in the country, yes? Nay...on the planet! Like Ahnold, Diane Feinstein, Nanny Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, et al?
They should be able to help you out of that mess you all have going on out there. Once they fix it there, maybe they can fix it for the rest of the country. Oops...looks like they're well on their way to doing just that after this week, doesn't it?
The stupidity of it all makes me want to pull my hair or somesuch. Other than that, I can't think of anything else to do except vote the clowns out.
Heinlein's been around here alot this week, BTW.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Vote out?
October 4, 2008 - 13:34 ET by RHRobinsonMDEvery member of the House of Representatives is up for reelection next month. They should ALL be voted out - en bloc.
Even in my district which is a safe (D) seat for Rep. Cardoza (who replaced Rep. Condit after some kerfluffle about a missing & later dead intern) he is running unopposed & should be voted out just leaving the seat vacant.
Throw the bastards out.
“Who am I? I am under 45 years old, I love the outdoors, I hunt and fish, I am a republican reformer, I have taken on the Republican Party establishment, I have many children, I have a spot on the national ticket as vice president with less than two years in the governor’s office, have you heard of me before now? The answer I am Teddy Roosevelt.
Bite Your Lip
October 4, 2008 - 13:35 ET by JDWAnd resolve the problem with the same old repartee, spending!
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
Better late than never!
October 4, 2008 - 12:16 ET by RackieAlthough late to the party, campaign experts and policy advisors are being brought in.
LOL Rackie,
October 4, 2008 - 12:28 ET by R D HelmHell, they couldn't do any worse than the campaign rocket-scientists McPork already has.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
If you like Govt. Regulated FHA, You will love Govt. Health care
October 4, 2008 - 12:31 ET by JayTeeHow can Obamarama talk about Government provided/fix for health Care, when we just witnessed the results of Government Regulated Mortgage Industry going Bankrupt ?
Can we Afford another Government regulated industry ?
The Republican Revolution will not be Televised
JayTee
October 4, 2008 - 12:44 ET by BlondeThat's the most cogent statement I've ever heard about government provided health care.
Maybe McCain will use it in his next debate.....although he's gone nuts lately, who knows?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
JayTee,
October 4, 2008 - 13:02 ET by R D HelmGiven the debacle that took place yesterday, surely the American people aren't stupid enough to hand control of our healthcare system to those same incompetent boobs.
Are they?
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
RD - I saw BHO on TV today talking it up, and gettin applause
October 4, 2008 - 13:18 ET by JayTeeI don't know who is more Ignorant, BHO or the people that show up in person to drink his koolaide and applaud his baloney.
If BHO talks about health care in the next POTUS debate, McCain should ask if BHO is going to move from Number 2 on the FHA Lobby Receipts list, to Number 1 on the Health Care Lobbyist Receipts list.
I don't believe the Polls anymore, because I don't believe the MSM is capable of reporting ANY political coverage that is accurate and un-Biased.
besides, most polls are a 1,000 people, and I think it is much smaller than the 70.000,000 that watched the VP Debate.
Joe Biden is on the ticket for BHO assasination Insurance . . . nobody would dare harm BHO with Biden waiting in the wings.
The Republican Revolution will not be Televised
Obama
October 4, 2008 - 14:29 ET by JDWThis is the same government Obama used to educate himself and in turn work his way to the presidential election he is now a part of today. Why is he attempting to change it?
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
JayTee,
October 4, 2008 - 15:00 ET by R D HelmI don't believe the Polls anymore, because I don't believe the MSM is
capable of reporting ANY political coverage that is accurate and
un-Biased.
Having observed the totally one-sided media coverage in this election cycle, and knowing the true colors of BHO, I am now at the point where I consider the MSM to be dangerously subversive and a direct threat to the very survival of this nation.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
R D Helment - - Dangerously Subversive DS MSM
October 4, 2008 - 15:14 ET by JayTeeI think you are correct, It's like Barney Frank in 1998, The MSM has come out of the Closet. . . and along comes Palin, with a Gun, a Moose Huntin Mama.
She Winks at the moose, right before she pulls the Trigger . . .or so I hear.....
Do they give Politicians Purple Hearts ?
The Republican Revolution will not be Televised
"How can Obamarama talk
October 4, 2008 - 14:36 ET by ckc1227"How can Obamarama talk about Government provided/fix for health Care,
when we just witnessed the results of Government Regulated Mortgage
Industry going Bankrupt ?
Can we Afford another Government regulated industry ? "
What's funny is he claims McCain's plan will tax health benefits, while ignoring the massive tax increase a nationalized health care plan will require.
Obama's Economic plan: more taxes, more spending, more regulation. Prosperity here we come.
CKC1226 + 1 And...And....Drilling was Regulated also, results?
October 4, 2008 - 14:43 ET by JayTeeRegulated Drilling . . as in DO NOT DRILL . . .has brought us 4 dollar a Gallon Gas, followed by the Auto Industry being caught with SUV's all over their car lots.
SO, Congress has Destroyed the Mortgage industry, the Auto Industry, and BHO is on the Campaign Trail saying Every American should have Health Care . . .
The Movie "Network"
Go to your Window right now, raise it up, stick your head out and Yell "I'm MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE !!!"
The Republican Revolution will not be Televised
California bailout?
October 4, 2008 - 13:08 ET by TheAssessorAdvice for Califoreverthing
Since your state is chuck full of support for criminals, simply decriminalize them all. Legalize prostitution, drugs, gangs, illegal immigration and tax 'em all. Turn the taxes up to 95% on your find upstanding liberal actor/politicos. Put looney-cartoon land back on 'high' immoral ground. Need a tax collector? Bring back the mob. Need a governor? Vote for Joey Buttafuco. Fence it off and leave a sign at the gate.. Failed Liberal State.
Barak Obama, Political Sociopath - Toxic Drip
Housing Board
October 4, 2008 - 13:35 ET by jaywlSomeplace I heard there was some "Federal Housing Board" set up to help in this crisis. It would reduce principal amounts and interest rates for those buyers sucked up by unscrupulous banks. I too was a victim of WaMu a while back and would like to take advantage of this ,ah, opportunity. I am really concerned about the federal government's decision to make my old television set obsolete and with a reduced mortgage I could buy new digital sets on credit. This would help our economy and our trading partner, Red China. Please advise as to contact info for this board.
PBS on Jimma Carter
October 4, 2008 - 13:35 ET by ricklailI just saw an advertisement for The American Experience on PBS Monday at 9. It is about Jimma Carter. From the previews it is about his efforts in "peace"- very pro Jimma. Would somebody here be willing to watch it and tell me about it Tuesday? I would do it but I can't afford to miss work on Tuesday because I have been throwing up all night Monday.
Priority
October 4, 2008 - 13:46 ET by JDWI will be watching McCain smearing Obama and the libs with their guilt on Fannie/Freddie and alleviating Bush.
JDW
DAILY WAVE
'Hey Chuck, Stand Up!'
"I will be watching
October 4, 2008 - 14:42 ET by ckc1227"I will be watching McCain smearing Obama and the libs with their guilt on Fannie/Freddie and alleviating Bush. "
You must get the make-believe channel, because I don't see McCain doing this. He needs to, but he won't.
Obama's Economic plan: more taxes, more spending, more regulation. Prosperity here we come.
Catch "Hannity's America" this Sunday
October 4, 2008 - 15:47 ET by marvlIt's gonna be a good one: an indepth look at Obama's past and his associations with Ayers, ACORN, Wright, et al ad nauseum. It should be interesting and provide much fodder and ammunition.
McCain's Screwed
October 4, 2008 - 15:49 ET by NeoConfirmedAt least according to the AP. Notice a certain tone to this summary of our current election? Maybe it's just me.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081004/ap_on_el_pr/campaign_next_chapter
In the very first paragraph, we learn that the economic crisis is "breaking" Obama's way. I wonder what the author means by that?
»→ It is true
October 4, 2008 - 16:52 ET by Cool ArrowIt is true because it has been repeated often enough
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
»→ National Slush Fund
October 4, 2008 - 16:49 ET by Cool ArrowCan't wait to see Franklin Raines replace Hank Paulson as head of the National Slush Fund.
Seems Republicans didn't consider what might be done with such a large sum of cash in the hands of a Democrat puppet.
What's the interest on $700 billion for just one day?
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
Cool, I'd calc that up for you...
October 4, 2008 - 18:57 ET by R D Helm...but my calculater doesn't go that high.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
At a modest rate of 4% per
October 5, 2008 - 05:43 ET by BuffNBoneAt a modest rate of 4% per year, the interest on $700 Billion is $53,272--per minute. In a leap year it is slightly less.
"Fighters are fun but bombers make policy"
People need to STOP SPENDING MONEY
October 4, 2008 - 16:54 ET by PopularTechThe Bailout will do nothing but save Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley from declaring bankrupcy. This is not going to make cheap credit available. Credit lending is going to get tighter because it has to. Credit lending is not going to disappear but only those with good or better credit standing will get it, this goes for businesses. I have never heard of a profitable business borrowing money to make their business work outside of expansion of said business. Thus unprofitable businesses need to go bankrupt just like Wall Street. You will still be able to get a car loan but will need 10-15% down, thus people will be forced to buy cars they can afford, mainly cheap new cars or used cars. More people will be renting then buying homes (like they should be).
We are in this mess because people and businesses are not living within their means, this goes to Government. If California needs to borrow $7 Billion that really means they need to spend $7 Billion less. This is the most irresponsible financial situation I have ever seen people, businesses and government in. STOP SPENDING MONEY YOU DO NOT HAVE. This is not rocket science. Government waste and waste money like there is no tomorrow. NJ for example is the most irresponsible state regarding spending I have ever seen.
The only way people who have done nothing wrong are going to be affected is because of the bailout. Because all these Billions and Trillions of dollars injected into the monetary supply is going to do is cause massive inflation thus making those people savings worth less!
Oh well the days of big government are OVER. The economic illiterates get to reap what they sow. People need to get smart as fast as possible.
1. Stop Spending Money
2. Reduce all Expenses (Bills)
3. Pay Down any debt (credit cards, loans)
4. Save Money but diversify it in real wealth not just cash (precious metals, food, other commodities people will need)
»→ Welcome back PopTech
October 4, 2008 - 16:59 ET by Cool ArrowI had a similar meltdown over that Government Sellout yesterday.
Glad you reconsidered.
Your 4 step plan is a good one. Reminds me of the 9/11 Emergency Plan. Maybe because we just got bombed by Domestic Terrorists posing as Congress.
We have just funded the Democrat Subversive Agenda for the next 20 years.
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
Sage advice PT...and great
October 4, 2008 - 17:26 ET by bigtimerSage advice PT...and great post all around..
I have tried also to cool down since we were all here yesterday regarding this situation, watched Cavuto's show this morning before delving into regular work around here...very interesting indeed.
Going to be interesting what more we are going to have to save from going under as they like to put it...
Btw...did anyone see this, you two may already know, I just got here, haven't read the whole thing myself...but the IRS even gets included in the Bail-Out bill... plus we know about the greening...
Where the hell is drilling? Here...now...everywhere...this is part of the problem big-time.
We all know how much congress is...
This has changed me for a long time in how I vote, depending on the individual candidates in more ways than one.
I have had it.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
»→ Saw it last night bt
October 4, 2008 - 17:31 ET by Cool ArrowI was throwing around that $17,000 figure at work last night. People don't seem to realize that money has to come from somewhere.
One thing for sure. An Obama Presidency will loot that fund for every ounce of personal and political gain it can.
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
PT
October 4, 2008 - 17:31 ET by Noel SheppardPT,
Not exactly. Virtually every major company and government uses short-term financing as a daily means of meeting accounts payable and recurring expenses. This by no means indicates they're all spending more than they're making. Profitable companies -- meaning companies that are actually making money -- use short-term loans and equity lines every day. So do state, county, city, and town governments along with municipalities, not all of which are spending beyond their revenues.
As such, there are MANY entities in the U.S. that are not currently able to get such financing through absolutely no fault of their own. As a result, they may have to lay people off, or skip paying their employees. I personally have already had one friend lose a profitable business as a result of a loan getting called in by a bank scrambling for funds, and have another friend in exactly the same boat. Multiply this across the landscape of our fine nation, and it becomes absurd to claim that this is all about Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, for my friends have NOTHING to do with either.
In the case of my great state of California, this has nothing to do with us being in a deficit. Instead, we're in a lull period of personal income and property tax receipts which as you should know have seasonalities. During such times, we use short-term loans to meet accounts payable. This is quite common for all state governments.
We're not looking for a handout. But, because the lending environment is for all intents and purposes closed, we're asking the federal government to bridge the gap. If you think this is a problem, then you better be worried about every other state, county, city, town, and company in this country that's going to be in exactly the same position in the next four weeks if the credit markets don't open up soon. ns
»→ Noel
October 4, 2008 - 17:39 ET by Cool ArrowWhat's to stop an Administration from using this slush fund as a political bludgeon?
Chuckie Schumer and Harry Reid have already discovered the power of the rumor mill. I'm willing to buy into a conspiracy theory that powerful Democrats want to create and perpetuate crisis.
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
NS... Don't you think
October 4, 2008 - 17:53 ET by bigtimerNS...
Don't you think that other states will follow Ca. lead if he gets what he wants?
When does this stop?
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
bt, it stops when the Chicoms call in their debt.
October 4, 2008 - 19:01 ET by R D HelmWatching them try and collect it will be interesting, indeed.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Except that...
October 5, 2008 - 20:09 ET by UnsaneI'd be a little more worried about Japan doing that. I'd bet the farm that they have FAR more Treasuries than does China.
But then, China is the boogeyman of this decade. Just as Japan allegedly owned all of our debt 20 years ago.
I predict we'll be ascribing this power to India in another 20 years.
Whoever casts a vote for Obama-Biden is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against them is nothing more than a moral coward.
BT
October 4, 2008 - 19:10 ET by Noel SheppardBT,
This isn't a problem created by folks that borrow money. Every state government borrows money. Been doing it for decades. As such, if they suddenly can't, they're ALL going to go bankrupt. ALL of them.
Think it'll be good for America if every state declares bankruptcy, and has to layoff all of its employees?
As such, YES, when other states suddenly can't get short-term financing because of this crisis, the Federal government is going to HAVE to lend them money. Then, at some point in the hopefully not so distant future when this crisis is over, these states will sell paper, and pay off the government. Simple. ns
NS
October 4, 2008 - 19:24 ET by BlondeSee my post at the very top of this thread.
I am very, very worried.
States, & municipalities, know how to spend when the times are good....not so much how to cut when they're not.
Short term financing is one thing, but as an ongoing mode of operation, not so good.
I think we're going to see at least 8% inflation in the short term. Maybe more.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
B
October 4, 2008 - 19:35 ET by Noel SheppardB,
I agree with that. That's likely why this problem is going to get much worse. As tax revenues go up, virtually all governments increase their budgets, even when intelligent folks within said governments suggest strongly that these revenues might not be recurring.
California in 1999 and 2000 was a fine example. There were economists in our state that were telling folks in Sacramento that the explosion in tax receipts was non-recurring because of the tech bubble. Sadly, our legislators didn't listen.
Of course, the same is true of the US government which continued to expand spending in the late-90s as its tech bubble-related revenues increased. The CBO projections of surpluses as far as the eye could see were always absurd because they depended on the tech bubble always expanding.
Pathetic. ns
Pathetic is the word for it, certainly.
October 4, 2008 - 19:45 ET by BlondeIt's going to be a very, very ugly downturn. The smart money now (is there such a thing, any longer?) is to prudently make all of the inflationary hedges. Still trying to figure out my next move.
But perhaps the culling of the governmental herd will be a good thing. These geniuses, on all levels, need to GO!
You know me...Little Miss Silver Lining.
Having said that, though, I am not optomistic, in the least. This will be viewed as one of the worst weeks in our history as a nation. Perhaps worse than the first week of December 1941.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Thanks Noel... I got
October 4, 2008 - 19:31 ET by bigtimerThanks Noel...
I got it...it's simple.
I pay taxes in Ca. I have been involved in our own small little business in the past, I know somewhat how things work, of course not to your vast knowledge of all of the ins-and-outs, we are and have been friends with local bankers ect...I know your wife is involved in the banking business somehow if memory serves me correct...
I also take it that you are solidly behind this bail-out...
I am not.
....simple as that.
Once again, we seem to disagree on things and how we see them in our own view-finders of life.
Btw...How do you feel about McCain agreeing with passing this bill filled with pork, I know all about the tax-extenders blah blah blah..what about the rest, he is supposed to be the pork-barrel buster, oh yeah I forgot...I mean sweeteners...
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
BT
October 4, 2008 - 19:38 ET by Noel SheppardBT,
For this bailout? Heck, I'm not for this bailout. I'm not sure anybody is for this bailout. And, I think the final package was disgusting.
Honestly, BT, I'm so disgusted and unhappy about all this that I don't know what's right or wrong anymore. I know we're in trouble and need to do something, that's all. I think inaction here isn't an option.
Make sense? ns
Noel,
October 4, 2008 - 19:53 ET by R D HelmI don't know what's right or wrong anymore. I know we're in trouble and need to do something, that's all.
Seeing that come from you, who I consider to be one of the more economically knowledgeable contributors here, that scares me.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Dave
October 4, 2008 - 20:00 ET by Noel SheppardDave,
I'm scared. I'm petrified, actually. We could be watching the end of the American dream. If credit doesn't thaw out soon, we're going to see a 1929 meltdown and a depression. Sorry to say it. ns
Noel... I too am worried
October 4, 2008 - 21:39 ET by Clear thinkerNoel...
I too am worried more now than I have ever been. Did the American dream die yesterday? Only time will tell.
Further up this thread you spoke about business owners you know that had their notes called because of credit getting tight with their bank/s. You also mentioned those that had/have trouble floating payroll because of tighter credit.Without going into a lot of detail, let me give you a real life example.
My agreement with the folks that bought my company, ran out almost 3 years ago. After they purchased my company they also paid me for one year, a very lucrative salary as a Consultant (fairly standard practice for smaller companies). Although we have no contractual relationship at this time, they called me this past week for advice. It was the easiest answer I have ever given. They were having some of the same problems as your friends, so they asked me what I would do. All I could suggest was for them to go to a bank that had a more conservative policy in their lending practices. I also suggested the bank they try. They did. It worked. Problem solved.
Here's the somewhat obvious reasons. Banks such as Wachovia went full bore making bad loans and now they are going down the shitter. Banks like BB&T never got caught up in the 'Loan to everyone' action, and stuck to what has worked for them for years... making smart loans. So it just makes good sense for businesses that are having problems with their bank, need to do some smart shopping. What our government has done is CRAP, but that's no reason for companies to lose sight of good old fashioned common sense.
BTW... You and I wrote about the exact same issue with Sarah and Katie...
Liberals Annoyed at Sarah Being Annoyed
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
CT
October 4, 2008 - 21:46 ET by Noel SheppardCT,
Well, in the case of my first friend, suddenly no one wanted to lend without indemnification. He had done this many times in the past, but just refused to this time. At some point, you've been in the same business for 16 years, making a profit every year, you should be able to fly on the good faith and credit of that company and its assets. Asking him to indemnify at this stage is kind of like me needing my father to co-sign a car loan. Know what I mean?
I didn't know you started your own site. Looks great. Congrats! ns
Noel...Yes, I would take
October 4, 2008 - 21:55 ET by Clear thinkerNoel...
Yes, I would take that as a slap in the face also. But do you let your company sink because of pride? I would have been pissed for 24 hours, gone home, thought it over, then been at the bank the following morning to do some groveling. Why? I had almost 200 families that relied on me!
Liberals Annoyed at Sarah Being Annoyed
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
CT
October 4, 2008 - 23:21 ET by Noel SheppardCT,
This wasn't personal. Just business. And what he did was decide to focus his efforts on another business that he had started. That's doing very well, and he'll be just fine. ns
Ct,
October 4, 2008 - 21:56 ET by R D HelmAs I have been out of work since Wednesday, I have been listening to a lot of local talk radio, particularly Boortz.
There have been many calls from people who work for banks that have plenty of money to lend, and are willing to as long as the customer has reasonably good credit.
What is more, I have talked to several people who are barely even aware things are amiss, as they seem to be doing fine.
There is a part of me that is beginning to believe that the possibility of a full-blown collapse, which is always present, was greatly embellished by Paulson and Co.
And as I have posted elsewhere, I think a lot of this could be blunted with a couple of deft, albeit politically-incorrect moves on the part of the government.
The power-grab bill (and that is exactly what it was) signed yesterday ain't gonna do it.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
RD...That's very true. I
October 4, 2008 - 22:09 ET by Clear thinkerRD...
That's very true. I have a friend here in the Asheville area, a builder, that went to get a small 7 figure loan the other day. He was expecting a hard time, but the loan officer told him if all checked out it should be no problem. Then added... "our bank is flush with money because a lot of large accounts have come to them from customers that closed out their Wachovia accounts."
"There is a part of me that is beginning to believe that the possibility of a full-blown collapse, which is always present, was greatly embellished by Paulson and Co."
What pisses me off is this.... I think the whole mortgage mess created by the government, and then driven like it was stolen by a few institutions somehow conned a few in government that you can't let them go down. That's it! And that is bull shit if true! Now our whole nation will suffer for decades, possibly longer. And I'm not talkIng about MONEY.
Liberals Annoyed at Sarah Being Annoyed
Making Fun of AGW http://giovanniworld.wordpress.com/
I think inaction is an
October 4, 2008 - 20:01 ET by bigtimerI think inaction is an option, how dare the congress-critters say we have to pay for govt. congress-critters and their mistakes, misjudgments, outright political agenda with their policies to garner votes and to keep people down and owing to them, the leftists and RINOs that keep providing this under a false pretense at our expense, we the people who defend, work hard to earn our money and pay taxes ect....and now we have to pay again?!
Lobbyists were hard at work on Capitol Hill this week.
Numerous ways to take care of this without taking out money without our say, the govt. is taking over inside so many areas now from real estate to banking, mortages ect...
No let the ones who fail, fail, the ones who will be bought up, bought up, on and on...but not something like this...
How dare they is my reaction...
Including John McCain...and the horse he rode in on...
He had a chance to garner so many votes, he was a fool to go for this, this could of been used hugely as political fodder on the campaign trail, something he himself has always championed...
Cut PORK-BARREL spending...
Now they are just sweeteners...ask Pelosi..
About a trrillion dollars decided in just about a week....
Priceless.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
BT
October 4, 2008 - 20:06 ET by Noel SheppardBT,
And I respect your position. Honestly, I do, especially with the POS bill that got enacted. Sheesh.
However, I just feel that we had to do something, that's all. Fair enough? ns
Sure it's fair enough...and
October 4, 2008 - 20:13 ET by bigtimerSure it's fair enough...and I respect your opinion as always.
I also forget to add in all the rules and regulations that the good old congress-critters have imposed on ALL businesses, let alone potential law-suits from the leftist trial lawyers...and the govt.
something has to come to a head...and it will...eventually, one way or the other, but I am damned angry it is at our expense, my God we have paid enough...
The govt. will eventually reap what they have sowed, all things come home to roost...and it will be right on top of their heads one way or the other.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
BT and Noel
October 4, 2008 - 22:36 ET by shawn228"If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you are the one responsible for what
happens with the end results, it is a chance you, and you alone should
take."
It is rare bt, but this is one of those times, I totally agree with you.:-)
Noel,
I won't even pretend to know even close to half as much as you on economics and finance, but isn't pretty dangerous when our national debt is 10 trillion and another 700 billion to be tacked on. Won't it be awfully hard to pay that money back, when we are spending more money that paying off the debt. I realize our GDP is big, but does the national debt not scare you?
Real life video games are cool
Shawn, BT and Noel, if you rob Peter to pay Paul
October 4, 2008 - 22:48 ET by jefflebowskiIf you rob Peter to pay Paul, you can always count on Paul's support.
That's the ideology that got us into this mess in the fist place with the dims wanting everyone to have a mortgage...if they qualified or not. Heck, it wasn't THEIR money...still isn't!
Jeff Lebowski
www.angrywhitedude.c...
Amen Jeff. "America isn't
October 4, 2008 - 22:52 ET by bigtimerAmen Jeff.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
shawn, I realize you weren't addressing me here...
October 4, 2008 - 22:55 ET by R D HelmBut I just decided I would butt-in anyway. :-)
As far as robbing Peter to pay Paul, the government has long ago perfected this tactic to the point where most Americans don't even realize they are doing it.
As for the national debt, I think we probably added far more than a mere $700B to it yesterday. I'm guessing we will be seeing $1.5B eventually, if not more, tacked on anyway.
However, while a national debt of $10T sounds like a sh*tload, and it is (although I think when you figure in the unfunded mandates, which no one ever seems to want to talk about, and apparently God himself is the only entity that has a clue what the actual amount of those mandates is, we are talking about far more money), who do we owe most of the money to?
The Chicoms, that's who.
Should we default and/or declare bankruptcy (and there is a pretty good argument circulating that we should do just that) what are the Chicoms going to do, other than soil their pajamas?
And look on the bright side, should we default, the Chinese economy would tank, and most Chinese will be having their cars repossessed!
LOL-Gas prices the world over would drop like a rock due to the huge reduction in demand!
-See, there is a silver lining in everything. :-^)
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Dave you can butt in
October 4, 2008 - 23:07 ET by shawn228Just dont don't call me a butt head. Even though sometimes I deserve it. :-)
Dave we are talking about 10 trillion dollars, That is heck of alot of money. That number was 5.7 trillion before this administration took over. Increasing the national debt about 180 percent in 8 years is mind boggling and common sense means we have to pay that money back eventually.
Lending another 700 billion to ourselves without putting that on tax payers will be interesting. Where is money going to come from?
Real life video games are cool
Shawn, honestly? I haven't the foggiest fornication of a clue.
October 4, 2008 - 23:28 ET by R D HelmThis country has been spending itself into debt since long before I was born, and that was in 1964.
With the re-pubes it has been borrow-and-spend.
With the dim-bulbs it has been tax-and-spend, and when that is no longer possible, borrow-and-spend to make up the difference.
LOL-Now you know why I am a libertarian. :-)
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
re-pubes?
October 4, 2008 - 23:42 ET by shawn228LMAO Dave. I have heard dim-bulbs one too many times,but re-pubes I never heard before. I love it.
Back on topic. I mean we are not even close to paying for the principal of that debt, we cannot even afford to pay the interest on that abomination of a debt
edit,
I do not remember a time in my life time , where I have been so afraid of the well being of the USA as I am now. One is us being attacked again and the other is our economic state.
Real life video games are cool
Shawn
October 4, 2008 - 23:53 ET by Noel SheppardShawn,
Oy. "we cannot even afford to pay the interest on that abomination of a debt."
Dude, really? Do you know what the interest is on this debt?
Here's what you need to do: study this very lengthy PDF, and become more knowledgable about the deficit, the debt, and America's budget history than 99.99 percent of the population -- http://www.whitehous...
The problem is, Shawn, that most people in our country know NOTHING about how our government finances work. NOTHING. And, like most things, what they do know comes from idiots like Katie Couric et al.
As such, rather than me answering any of your questions, I want you to find them for yourself. You'll be a much better person for it.
In the end, America has been badly budgeting since Roosevelt was first elected (Franklin not Teddy!). We've been amassing debt since, and have rarely had a balanced budget. It's sad, but true.
And, no, we didn't have a balanced budget during the Clinton years, for even then our debt expanded. Also sad but true.
With that, I leave you with your assignment, assuming you accept to take it. If not, you will continue to live in the dark as so many of your fellow countrymen, yet believe you know the truth. ns
P.S. I think the vodka is kicking in. :-)
Noel
October 5, 2008 - 00:44 ET by shawn228I promise I will look at it and try to understand, it but it is a lot pages and numbers that I will not understand for a while at least not tonight.
Noel, I know I am the average schmoe that does not even begin comprehend the numbers you look at to help people invest everyday, however, in simple layman terms to me, if we managed to pay for the interest on that debt, the debt would not go up by an average of 1,7 trillion a year.
I'm not going to argue with you about Clintons balanced budget, but am I wrong that the national debt rose close to 180 percent under the Bush Adminstration?
Real life video games are cool
Shawn
October 5, 2008 - 00:55 ET by Noel SheppardShawn,
I'm not sure what you're getting at. However, the federal debt is a problem. Has been for decades. Just gets worse and worse and worse. And, it's going to get a lot worse as the baby boomers retire with their hands out.
Has it gotten worse under Bush 43? Yep. However, it's gotten worse under every president since Woodrow Wilson. As such, who do you want to blame it on?
We're a debtor nation, Shawn. Have been since before you were born and likely before your parents AND grandparents were born. This is NOT a recent affectation.
Want to know what's most responsible for it? Go check that link and tell me. :-)
Want to know which two presidents are most responsible for it? FDR and LBJ, for they both created unmanagable entitlement programs largely responsible for all of our budget problems.
Want to prove me wrong? Go for it. However, be advised that I've offered that challenge to people on the Internet for many years, and nobody's been able to do it yet. ns
Prove you wrong Noel?
October 5, 2008 - 01:31 ET by shawn228I agree with everything you said, I never said I doubted you. I am saying that it took over 40 Presidents to make the debt 5 trillion, and it took 1 President to double it in 8 years.
I mostly question these two statements.
"Oy. "we cannot even afford to pay the interest on that abomination of a debt."
Dude, really? Do you know what the interest is on this debt? "
I could totally be misinterpreting, but I am thinking you are saying we are paying the interest on the debt, what I am saying is, if this were true, why is the debt going up by 1.7 trillion a year under Bush?
edit,
My point Noel is that we are debtor nation, but when will that debt get so big, than we cannot pay it off? Everyone points to how big our GDP is. Everytime mentions the cost of the war....Its always the GDP. Well if the GDP is so mighty, then why not pay off the whole debt quicker?
Real life video games are cool
Shawn seen any good shows
October 5, 2008 - 01:36 ET by Carl KolchakShawn seen any good shows lately? I think I'll check out "Life on Mars" on NBC. This looks pretty good.
Hi Carl
October 5, 2008 - 01:44 ET by shawn228Always great to see you my friend :-)I am going to stick to the usual ones Karl. Prison Break, Heroes and MNF on Monday, Grays Anotomy and Smallville on Thursday, Ghost Whisperer on Friday, SNL on Saturday. I will also watch Friday Nights Lights and 24 when they come back.
I am in TV heaven right just got AT&T uverse and I got over 450 channels and 38 high def channels.
What I love the most about this day and age is the DVR. I can record all my progams on a hard drive and watch them at my conveniece. Ya gotta take my advice and get 24 seasons 1-5, you will love it.
Real life video games are cool
Shawn (this is
October 5, 2008 - 20:50 ET by LiberalliesShawn (this is futbolisgreat) HI!
Hmmmm...one question, who holds the power of the purse in our federal government, the Executive branch or the Legislative branch?
If Congress wanted they could real in the spending rather quickly.
A great misconception, pushed by the media, in the United States is the the President of the United States has the power of the purse. Please re-read your Constitution before blaiming ANY President for the out of control spending of this nation.
Futbol
October 5, 2008 - 20:57 ET by shawn228The President is not solely reponsible but he is partly. I am not saying I agree or disagree with the two wars we are in, but they are part othe reason of how quickly the national debt is rising.
Also the Bush and the GOP had control of the Presidency and both chambers for a while and there was a ridiculus amount of spending being done. The fact our dollar is tanking has something to do with it as well.
Real life video games are cool
Shawn,Hmmm...actually
October 5, 2008 - 21:11 ET by LiberalliesShawn,
Hmmm...actually our dollar was going weak...tanking? now that is hyperbole my friend. You want to see tanking go take a look at a couple of Latin American coins.
Furthermore, as of today, the dollar has been getting stronger and stronger.
Hmmm...do not forget that for the past two years it has been the Democrats who have been in power. In two years they could have realed in the spending. Question, how much has our national debt increased in the past two years, while Democrats have been in control of Congress? Republicans had a majority over both houses of Congress and the Presidency for 6 years. Not 8 years. Please, you are much smarter than repeating Democrat talking points.
I agree that Republicans were not realing in spending and in fact our government grew under George W. Bush, but it isn't like the Democrats stopped or even tried to stop any of the spending.
While Republicans have spent, along with Democrats on the Iraq War and the Afghan War, Democrats will bring a slew of domestic spending that you haven't seen in decades. They will create domestic programs ot keep minorities voting for them.
and once again, Congress holds the power of the purse, NOT the President.
To blame any President for the out of spending control spending is like my wife blaming me for her out of control spending.
Shawn, at it's worst
October 5, 2008 - 21:14 ET by Free StinkerShawn,
at it's worst (lowest) it took 1.60 USD to buy 1.00 EUR
As of Friday it was 1.38 USD to buy 1.00 EUR
The US Dollar is also up against the British Pound, the Swiss Franc, and the Canadian Dollar.
Hi Free
October 5, 2008 - 21:18 ET by shawn228It has been gaining lately, that is why gas is going down along with demand.
The thing is, it was down and doing badly for so long that the long term ripple effects are felt.
Oil under 100 dollars a barrel is considered a bargain.
Real life video games are cool
Shawn, Yeah, but it was
October 5, 2008 - 21:24 ET by LiberalliesShawn,
Yeah, but it was not tanking....once again that is hyperbole. And badly for so long? once again, it did bad against the Euro for a few months....not for so long. Once again, hyperbole.
Not hyerbole futbol
October 5, 2008 - 21:39 ET by shawn228I have been commuting back and forth from the United and Canada for over 12 years. I used to be very happy when I went home to visit Canada, I would get $1.50 for ever dollar I exchanged.
When this President took over, it got worse every year. About 9 months ago the Canadian dollar overtook the American dollar for the first time in over 3 decades. The greenback has been slightly higher or at par with Canadian dollar for 9 months and has not even come close to the 1.50 it to even 7 years ago. That is not hyperbole, that is fact.
A strong dollar and price of oil go hand in hand. Yes global demand is a factor, but so the value of the greenback
Real life video games are cool
Shawn, you have a point.
October 5, 2008 - 21:49 ET by mandrakeShawn, you have a point. Here's a useful site I found that compares the US vs. Candian dollar on a month to month basis. You can select any year you want.
http://www.x-rates.com/d/CAD/USD/hist2008.html
Actually some things I like to import from the US have gotten cheaper lately :)
Mandrake, Sorry, shawn's
October 5, 2008 - 22:02 ET by LiberalliesMandrake,
Sorry, shawn's point is that he wants to blame President Bush for the out of control spending of Congress.
Once again, the Constitution of the United States gives the power of the purse to which branch of goverment? The legislative branch!
Now, please do tell what have Democrats done in the past two years to real in the out of control spending of Congress?......that's what I thought, nothing!
The problem with too many Americans is that while they are honest and sincere, they listen too much to the freaking mass media which has led them to believe that the Presidency somehow has power over governmental spending. Congress has the power of the purse, NOT the President. In the American mind, they have given the Presidency a lot more power than that position truly has. Of course thanks to the media and our "wonderful" education.
Of course, what can we expect from us the little people, when big old Joe Biden is quoting Article I of the Constitution to prove how much power lies on the Executive Branch. Imagine if Bush or any Republican would have made such a gaffe!!!! The media would have gone crazy and the Democrats would have made the Republican eat their words every day until November 4.
Sarah Palin might not know too many Supreme Court decision, but freaking Joe Biden, 33 years on the Senate, has no clue to what is written on the Constitution! Of course we know which one of these two statements the media made a big deal about and shoved down the throats of Americans.
I am unsure why anyone
October 5, 2008 - 21:18 ET by LiberalliesI am unsure why anyone would believe that a Democrat controlled Federal Government would real in spending.
Please give me proof that they would do this.
Furthermore, I rather have the Republican spending on wars to defend our nation than on ridiculous domestic programs that keep the poor poor.
and if you want to talk about economic disasters let us talk about the Democrats hand in the whole Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac debacle which is equal and worst to anything to the Eron debacle.
don't you wonder why Obama and no Democrat has demanded the heads of the CEOS of these two organizations? check out how many millions they gave to Democrat party members.
ACORN, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, all responsible for the housing market debacle which is a true reason why our dollar went weak. And who is in the middle of this disaster? DEMOCRATS!
Go check out the historical fact that two years ago McCain, Bush and other Republicans were demanding that these organizations be brought under control....and guess who oppossed it? that's right Democrats.
Democrats really need to be careful not to throw stones when their house is made out of glass.
futbol
October 5, 2008 - 21:21 ET by shawn228Again, I am not completely blaming him, just saying almost doubling the national debt in 8 years is kind of mind boggling.
Real life video games are cool
Shawn, eh? You are not
October 5, 2008 - 21:54 ET by LiberalliesShawn, eh?
You are not completly blaiming the President? honestly, you could have fooled me.
The doubling of the American national debt rests at the feet of BOTH parties. BOTH! Yeah, I agree it is crazy, but shoot we are at war, something that Americans have forgotten. Wars are expensive, but these ones are necessary.
And once again, if you want to see a currencies truly tank, go live in Latin American nations.
I have experienced a currency tank, The Venezuelan Bolivar versus the dollar....now what happened there was true tanking. Or maybe the Argentinian dollar against the US Dollar....that was also true tanking.
What has happened with the US dollar is a temporary weakness and which we are seeing go away.
Once again, you are using hyperbole to excuse your anti-Bush rant that it his fault that the American economy went down and the dollar got weak. C'mon....blame all those involved.....both parties.
You did not answer, what has the Democrat controlled Congress done to real in spending. I await your answer.
You cannot blame ANY President for our national debt, Presidents do NOT hold the power of the purse! So, how can you put ANY blame on Bush when he doesn't have the power of the purse?
Blame Republicans in Congress....but if you do this, you must also blame Democrats and you seem very hesitant to want to blame Democrats for any financial "crisis" that this nation may be facing.
Once again, Shawn, Democrats have been in control of Congress for the past two years, what have they done to real in spending and bring the Federal Government to spend responsibly?
Sigh Futbol
October 5, 2008 - 22:03 ET by shawn228I believe I said quite a few times that I don't completely blamed Bush, Also I never defended the Democrats is bccause I believe they are doing a bad job well. See Fut you are making assumptions that I hold the Democrats only.
Oh and your point about temporary problem. I proved to you that the US dollar has gone down against MAJOR currencys is a temporty problem is simply not true, the dollar is making a comeback only after 7 straight years of dropping. 7 years is not temporary. That rapid decline of the US dollar was the reason for rapid increase in price of oil.
Real life video games are cool
Shawn... Wow, my question
October 5, 2008 - 22:11 ET by LiberalliesShawn...
Wow, my question to you is....how can you blame Bush in any way, shape or form, when it is clearly stated in the United States Constitution that the President does not hold the power of the purse? care to explain this to me? The power of the purse lies at the feet of Congress, not the Executive branch, get it?
Your response should say, "Oh, I did not realize that. You are right Futbol, PResident's do not hold the power of the purse. However, Republicasn in Congress are as much to blame as Democrats in Congress." get it? You can't blame a branch of government for a power it does not hold. get it?
As for a Major currency, I hope you are not calling the Canadian greenback a major currency, it is used by less people that use the Venezuelan Bolivar....ha! just kidding.....
Sorry, the dollar is one of the strongest currencies in the world, unsure how you can call it weak.
Many would also say that for too long the dollar was over valued and it has been going through a correction. Today is going back to what is truly worth. However, your point that the US dollar is weak, going down, the sky is falling theory IS hyperbole.
Geez Futbol
October 5, 2008 - 22:21 ET by shawn228Again, I am not debating if the two wars was a good idea or not, but they have both contributed to a weaker dollar and Bush was the man that made the final decision to go to war right? Creating Homeland security takes a lot of money right? How about the billions spent on abstinence only programs, These are not George Bushes decicsions? Again I am not debating about if they are necessary or not, I am just asking if that would contritube to our debt or not.
Well Canada supplies us with more oil than most of the middle east combined, but since you are looking down on the Canadian dollar, lets talk about the Euro okay? I has not even come close to how much i was since 04. Wow so 4 years is temporary as well?
Real life video games are cool
Liberalies, I was under the
October 5, 2008 - 22:04 ET by mandrakeLiberalies, I was under the impression that a president can veto any bill sent to him by congress.
Now as far as I can tell President Bush has actually endorsed this 700 Billion dollar bailout of Wall Street rather than veto it..odd for a conservative President, wouldn't you say?
Mandrake, Of course any
October 5, 2008 - 22:17 ET by LiberalliesMandrake,
Of course any President can veto a bill, however, as you well know the veto has to be Congress full-proof. And are you also now claiming that Democrats have nothing to do with this 700billion bill? If you believe that in this atmosphere Bush would be able to make a veto hold, you truly are out of touch.
and as for Bush being Conservative? HA! where did you eat that lie from? Bush is right of center on some issues, but my friend, he is far from Conservative. In fact, i would assert here and now that Bush's policies are more similar to John F. Kennedy's than that of Reagan's.
and finally, the power of the purse, according to the United States Constitution, lies at the feet of Congress. Now if you believe you know more than the Constitution, take up your argument with Jefferson, Washington, Hamilton, Adams, etc, etc, etc.
and maybe you can tell me, Mandrake, what has this Democrat controlled Congress done to real in spending.....tick, tock, tick, tock....
Why do you and Shawn refuse to answer this question? Democrats have controlled Congress for two years, what have they done to stop the out of controlled spending? what have they done to reverse our trillion dollar debt. c'mon now. don't be shy, answer the question.
Futty, it is always fun to
October 5, 2008 - 22:30 ET by mandrakeFutty, it is always fun to debate with you, but of course I'm 'out of touch' as you say, I'm a Canadian. I was never taught the US consistution.
Anyway, I don't really blame Bush for the current financial problem..both parties are at fault.
Now if you don't mind, it's late and my leg hurts...so have a good night :)
Shawn, Well my friend,
October 5, 2008 - 22:36 ET by LiberalliesShawn,
Well my friend, that is your downfall, being Canadian! HAHA!! just joking!
why is your leg hurting? I hope you were not getting a tingling feeling up your leg for too long. hahaha!!!
Well, I am unsure if you are out of touch. I just truly believe that all of us are too lazy to find out the full facts before repeating what is out there in the media.
Let us not forget that in the 1990s when Congress really wanted to real in spending they brought the Federal Government down to a halt and there was a huge show down between Newt's Congress and President Clinton. I am unsure if you remember this.
But I do agree, BOTH parties have a huge spending problem and neither party is willing to do much to stop it.
Believe me, I was not too happy with Republicans caving in to the 700billion dollar bill and PResident Bush's push for the passing of this bill.
Anyway, feel better and good night!
Pssst Liberal allies
October 5, 2008 - 22:45 ET by shawn228My foot is okay :-) I think you were talking to Mandrake. You see Mandrake is sore because he was in a bad auto accident. He has went on many trips to the hospitial, the medical was not covered by his employer. Thing is mandrake does not have pay anything because all his treatments were free. Just kidding futbol, no universal healthcare debate tonight, it was just a joke
Lol,
To Mandrake,
Nice seeing you bud, hope you are feeling better
Real life video games are cool
shawn, I agree. Hell, I cannot even count that high.
October 5, 2008 - 00:45 ET by R D HelmWell, as far as us being attacked in the conventional sense, I don't worry about that too much. After all, we have 14 Ohio-class boomers currently prowling the oceans, with enough fire-power, conventional or otherwise, to blow the moon out of orbit-numerous times over.
Any large coordinated attack carried out against us would mean national suicide for the attacker.
As for isolated terror attacks, particularly involving WMDs of the nuclear variety, I think we are probably okay there, too, as long as we don't let our guard down. Nukes give off radiation, which can be detected. Even by satellites.
As for our well being, I remember going to school in the very late sixties and early seventies with fallout shelter signs plastered all over. I even have some older cousins that went through the duck-and-cover drills in the event we suffered a nuclear attack.
Hey, the world is not a safe place. Never has been, never will be.
Just look at the 6k years of recorded history. Hell, just look at the history of the last 3/5ths of the 20th Century.
Economically, we could be doing far better. This country reached its economic peak in the 1960's. We did so then because the government had not yet become the major drag on the economy it has in the years since. There were far, far fewer bodies lined up at the trough back then.
In the nearly 50 years since, something has gone hideously awry in this country. Personally, I believe we have grown soft. We seem to want the government to wipe our behinds after the fact. The lunacy that transpired after Katrina drove that home for me in a big way.
We haven't faced a serious threat since Japan was defeated in 1945. I discount the threat of the Soviet Union to a certain degree, not because it did not exist (there was an attempted launch of a nuclear missile by a rogue Soviet Sub against this country that, thankfully, backfired badly, as well as the Cuban Missile Crises) but because of the cultural similarities that existed between us, neither side was really all that eager to nuke the other.
Remember, the USSR was, during the Cold War, essentially a third-world country that just happened to have nukes, but they were cash poor. Their citizens were, in many areas, literally starving.
However, I think Russia is more of a threat now, as, since the fall of "The Wall" they have been busy exploiting their vast natural resources, and are no-longer cash poor. They have been spending vast sums to modernize their military. Their recent movements into Venezuela are more than a little disturbing, actually.
Our current economic state is bad, but we have been through worse. We currently have an unemployment rate of 6.1%. That is still lower than some European countries in "normal" times. What is more, it is still far, FAR below the 25% unemployment rate that existed during the Great Depression.
As long as we don't get seriously stupid, we can get through this fairly unscathed.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Dave how is the grill working?
October 5, 2008 - 01:11 ET by Carl Kolchak"(there was an attempted launch of a nuclear missile by a rogue Soviet Sub against this country that, thankfully, backfired badly,"
Hey Dave, how is the grilling been lately? Hope you are doing well.
Can you please elaborate on the statement above. I was going to read a book about that, but it appeared that the book was based on unnamed sources that couldn't be revealed, so I didn't know how much credence was in it. It did sound interesting though. Did you read the book ,and if so what were your thoughts? As I recall the book alleged the Soviets were going to launch it from a submarine with the hope the Americans would think it was the Chinese.
Carl, the two books you are looking for are:
October 5, 2008 - 02:41 ET by R D Helm1) Blind Man's Bluff
2) Red Star Rogue
-In that order, as there is a chronology involved.
-Blew my sox off, they did.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Shawn always good to see you
October 5, 2008 - 02:27 ET by Carl KolchakShawn always good to see you too my friend. I hope you and the wife are doing well. Too bad they don't make cool shows like "CHIPS" anymore. Nobody can do as much as Ponch could do. My cousin and I used to like to get into discussions about who could do more? Ponch from "CHIPS" or Fonzie from "Happy Days"? The obvious answer might be Fonzie because he jumped over a shark wearing his leather jacket, but don't forget the episode where Ponch had to protect Leif Garret.
Thx Carl
October 5, 2008 - 02:36 ET by shawn228Ponch was neat by, by no one defined cool like The Fonz :-)
Real life video games are cool
shawn, I don't have all the answers.
October 5, 2008 - 21:31 ET by R D HelmIn fact, I doubt I have very many at all, actually, as I am far from the brightest bulb in the chandelier. What is more, my view of the world is rather different from most you will encounter, be it here at NB or anywhere else.
As I have posted elsewhere on NB over the last couple of days, I believe the government could take two very specific actions that would at least, in the short to near-term, soften the blow of what might be coming our way.
However, from a realistic view of the political situation that exists in this country today, neither of those actions are going to be adopted.
Quite frankly, the American public has been dumbed down to the point that passage of either action is probably an impossibility, never mind both of them.
Sadly, the "entitlement mentality" has been so ingrained in the minds of so many in this country today that correcting anything in a positive, linear way is extremely difficult, if not impossible.
There is one thing that could happen, though, that would go a very long way toward correcting things in the long-term, and that is for "We the People" to rise up and re-take control of our own government on November 4th.
I have long felt that we lost control of this government a very long time ago. The passage of the so-called "rescue bill" the other day should clearly demonstrate that fact even to the dimmest bulbs walking among us.
Should we fail to do what is right next month, as I truly believe time is running out, the first three words in the Constitution should be changed from "We the People" to "We the Sheeple" and be done with it.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
RD it's bigger than 10 trillion..
October 4, 2008 - 23:16 ET by upcountrywaterThe ceiling is now 11.3 trillion..
yea I'm nit pickin.and butin in.
don't take it personal, k ..
Maybe the USA will sell the Chicoms; Hawaii.
If not it's MAD-MAX
CLIMATE CRISIS
IranianUranium
ucw, it wouldn't surprise me if it was $15T.
October 4, 2008 - 23:20 ET by R D HelmOnce all of the un-funded mandate crap and the off-budget items are factored in.
LOL-Well, we could always invade South Africa, swiss-cheese the place and collect every diamond we can find. :-^)
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
RD, Monday the trillions will flow, I posted this over in the
October 4, 2008 - 23:29 ET by upcountrywaterforums:
Friday (10-03-08) I found my self in front of a TV..
Oprah was on, Some bankin guy was on, great information.
Suze Orman on now, Poor thing she is a twitchin, talkin' bout how no one follows the basic financial rules.
Both were blaming the GREEDY Banks those' 0 down; loaners, mortgage sub-primers ,riff raff, et al.
Poor unsupecting public, SCREWED by the UNREGULATED, GOP laced, Private sector.
ZERO mention of the CRA's creating this TOXIC mess ?
Fearfull Oprah might be impacted by
The alphabet soup of law inforcement
After all she's ah billionaire, may own a bank or 2.
Oh look they are soo up to date, nasty snippitts too.
When was the last time (if ever) you reached for a bail bucket, and used it just once? Oh just one overflowing scoop, i'm done.
Bail outs will continue until , this fluff gov. $ 12 trillion agency, goes POOF!
latest info 6-30-08 updated 10-02-08, no worries it's the gov.
CLIMATE CRISIS
IranianUranium
Myth-killing
October 5, 2008 - 20:15 ET by Unsanewho do we owe most of the money to?
The Chicoms, that's who. Wrong, R D. Completely and totally. But that line is GREAT for shrieking populists everywhere.
I have NEVER seen, ANYWHERE, that the debt is any more than, say, 33% foreign owned. And when I say foreign owned, that means ALL the major players, INCLUDING China.
I would be intrigued as to how it is mathematically possible for a nation whose GDP is in the BILLIONS to own most of a debt that is in the TRILLIONS. If that is indeed true, then the question becomes "Who's got China by the throat???"
I am so tired of that lame myth popping up everywhere. I have lots of reasons for worrying about China. This is FAR from one of them. Besides, they have LOTS of problems of their own.
Whoever casts a vote for Obama-Biden is nothing more than a common thief. Whoever fails to vote against them is nothing more than a moral coward.
Unsane, sorry, as I failed to add "other than ourselves."
October 6, 2008 - 21:11 ET by R D HelmLOL-Had I added that part, it would have completely ruined the effect of what I was trying to say.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
All hail the YES MEN!
October 4, 2008 - 18:32 ET by Rackie" Virtually every major company and government uses short-term financing as a daily means of meeting accounts payable and recurring expenses."
Because virtually every one uses it doesn't mean it is sustainable or even a good idea. A new business model(still based on the old "screw or be screwed") will no doubt be needed to survive a new reality of fear & greed(as if anyone ever believed reality was a factor to be considered in business or politics. Frankly, I think 80% of the coming and goings of the "market" are bullshit and 90+% in politics.) But, back to my point, the worker bees of the world, the loyal drones, are told to protect the hive at any cost, at any sacrifice. Now that the Armani & Gucci set have destroyed their lovely clubhouse they demand we rebuild it.
All that commotion you hear in the background is their shit hitting your fan.
That Makes no Sense Noel
October 4, 2008 - 18:36 ET by PopularTechIf the business is not spending beyond revenue than why would they need a loan? Unless their expenses are more than what they take in. I have worked for various businesses and major corporations and have never heard of this nonsense before. These businesses are operating outside of good fiscal policy and that is their fault, not mine. My business has excess savings and capital to meet expenses and we never let it get to a situation we need a loan to meet expenses - NEVER.
If your friends business is profitable why did he need a loan?
Wait so you are saying California is fiscally responsible? Excuse me while I laugh myself into a coma.
I am not worried about idiotic government and states that are clueless about finances. Hey Noel how come these governments did not save any money? Whose fault is that?
Business and Government need to become fiscally responsible.
PT
October 4, 2008 - 19:17 ET by Noel SheppardPT,
With all due respect, could you please tell me how old you are and what businesses you've either owned or held an upper-management position in?
Are you out of your mind? Are you suggesting that every company in America that has sold bonds -- BTW, that means DEBT!!! -- is therefore unprofitable?
Are you out of your mind? Are you really this oblivious about corporate financing? Do you think that every company in America that has outstanding bonds -- which, BTW, is likely every company in the S&P 500!!! -- isn't profitable because they have debt?
Wow. I had no idea all this time I was communicating with someone so inexperienced and unknowledgable about how businesses are run. Sorry to have over-estimated you. I won't make that mistake again.
P.S. I currently own and manage three corporations. They all have lines of credit, and they're all profitable. Prior to this, I held upper-management positions in three corporations, all of which had lines of credit and were always profitable. That's my experience with this. What's yours? ns
PT
October 4, 2008 - 19:26 ET by Noel SheppardPT,
Let me demonstrate further just how clueless you appear to be when it comes to how businesses in America operate. I imagine you've heard the term "commercial bank"? In the good old days, these were banks that for the most part only made loans to businesses. Do you think these loans were to unprofitable businesses? Do you think they would be successful lending money to companies that were losing money?
Get a grip, man. There are many reasons that companies borrow money, and ONE of them ISN'T because they're NOT profitable, because banks to lend money to companies that are losing money!
Sheesh!!! ns
Banking
October 4, 2008 - 19:42 ET by PopularTechBanks assign risks to the loans, if they either do not have any collateral or chance of getting the loan paid back why would they loan the money? How does that make any sense. So banks should be forced to recklessly loan money? Isn't that how we got into this situation.
Why did they issue Bonds Noel?
October 4, 2008 - 19:39 ET by PopularTechIf you have debt outstanding revenue how is that profitable?
What is the purpose for issuing bonds Noel? The only rational reason I have heard is to finance purchasing equipment or business expansion.
Is a Bond debt or not? Who's responsible for taking that risk?
Having debt and having so much debt that it can cause a company to go bankrupt are two different things. How much are these companies leveraged? Where is the fiscal responsibility?
Sorry if I consider running a business within operating means unknowledgeable.
PT
October 4, 2008 - 19:53 ET by Noel SheppardPT,
You're speaking non sequiturs, and showing me that you have absolutely no real experience in business. I've asked you to tell me what your qualifications are to be making the unfounded statements you're making. I've told you what mine are. Either you reciprocate, or this discussion is over. I have NO interest in debating someone that doesn't have any real functional knowledge of what he's so pompously espousing.
In plain English: put up or shut up! ns
Are Bonds debt or not Noel?
October 4, 2008 - 19:56 ET by PopularTechWhy can you not answer the question?
Perhaps you should rephrase the question
October 4, 2008 - 20:01 ET by BlondeBecause I, like my economist friend Noel, didn't have a clue what you were talking about.
Now, Pop, feel free to make a statement about my rack, or somesuch.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
The question is as straight forward as possible
October 4, 2008 - 20:03 ET by PopularTechAre bonds debt or not?
EXCUSE me...Pop....No it wasn't!
October 4, 2008 - 20:08 ET by BlondeIf you have debt outstanding revenue how is that profitable?
WTF? That was the unclear question.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Profitability
October 4, 2008 - 20:12 ET by PopularTechIf you have more debt + expenses than you have in revenue it is impossible to be profitable.
That's not what you said.
October 4, 2008 - 20:27 ET by BlondeIf you have debt outstanding revenue how is that profitable?
Just admit, for once...that you didn't quite post what you meant to...instead of acting like a big fat moron!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
It is called a Typo
October 4, 2008 - 20:40 ET by PopularTechIt is called a typo, I should have said having outstanding debt more than revenue which is actually worse by not including exspenses. But this has nothing to do with the question I asked last.
Geez, Pop....Man Up, would you?
October 4, 2008 - 20:51 ET by BlondeThat sentence was the dog's damned breakfast...and you know it.
It made your "question" incomprehensible. Don't expect us to interpret your meaning(s).
BTW...."outstanding debt more than revenue" is not bad practice. It's another non-point. (BTW..."debt more than revenue" has nothing to do with expenses).
The salient point is short term assets (cash) versus short term liabilities (accounts/notes payable).
You can fool some of the people, some of the time....but for crying out loud, if you're going to get into it with people who know what's what, be specific!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
ROFLMAO
October 4, 2008 - 20:54 ET by Free StinkerROFLMAO
:)
October 4, 2008 - 20:57 ET by BlondeSheesh....pretenders!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
The Good Business Model = Perpetual Debt
October 4, 2008 - 21:13 ET by PopularTechMy question has not changed.
Are bonds debt or not?
If you think constantly running a business in debt is not bad practice then maybe you could explain to everyone why there is a crisis. Based on this logic there should be no crisis because obviously running a business in perpetual debt is a good business model.
Now I know that this problem is worse than I thought with this ridiculous thinking.
Your question was to me?
October 4, 2008 - 21:16 ET by BlondeOf course bonds are debt.
Why don't you foist off your second sentence on someone who said that?
Sheesh, Pop. I expect better of you than this shit!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Blonde
October 4, 2008 - 21:23 ET by Free StinkerNext PT is going to say he never heard of Debt to Equity Ratio.
Governor Palin - She is the Real Deal !
Well Gosh, Free
October 4, 2008 - 21:25 ET by BlondeI'm kinda learnin' about PE ratios....don't overwhelm my blonde little mind, thank ya verra much!
Good Lord!
FS....it's DEBT TO REVENUE dammit!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
B - Debt is a four letter word
October 4, 2008 - 21:31 ET by Free StinkerDon't you mean Debt Outstanding Revue? ;-)
Righto, Free....
October 4, 2008 - 21:35 ET by BlondeThat old Debt Revue....
Where all of the losers stand in a chorus line, and kick up their heels in unison!
We've bailed on our mortgages...left it all behind.
Left you suckers to pay for it...ha ha...no never mind!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
LOL B !
October 4, 2008 - 21:36 ET by Free StinkerLOLWTIME
Didn't I say leverage?
October 4, 2008 - 21:34 ET by PopularTechMaybe you missed that.
Nope
October 4, 2008 - 21:37 ET by BlondeYou didn't.
But keep it up.
Just admit you screwed the pooch....then reply to Noel.
That would be an excellent start.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
B
October 4, 2008 - 21:45 ET by Free StinkerB - Poptech mentions "leverage" (he means debt), but thinks no one saw him ask Noel:
If your friends business is profitable why did he need a loan?
Cleary PT has little real world knowledge of the business world, since he thinks a company isn't profitable if it takes on debt.
Clearly you don't have a clue
October 4, 2008 - 21:47 ET by BlondeDavid Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
FS
October 4, 2008 - 21:51 ET by Noel SheppardFS,
Exactly. Name a Fortune 500 or S&P 500 company that doesn't have debt. There's likely very few publicly traded companies that have none. Tough to expand your business with cashflow if you're also taking a salary and/or paying dividends to shareholders.
And, your only options are selling equity or borrowing. As you know, most companies do both. ns
Debt vs Bankrupcy
October 4, 2008 - 21:58 ET by PopularTechHaving well managed debt and having so much that it can cause bankrupcy are two different things.
Maybe the business model is flawed, nope it is obviously a sound business model as we are seeing now, LMAO.
Blonde lies! Thanks for lying Blonde
October 4, 2008 - 21:52 ET by PopularTech"How much are these companies leveraged?"
Just admit that you lied.
Man up, PopT
October 4, 2008 - 21:56 ET by BlondeSheesh....
Not even in this part of the discussion.
Just once, ONCE, I'd like to see you climb off your high horse.
But nice braying there.....very nice.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Grow up Blonde
October 4, 2008 - 22:00 ET by PopularTechDo you not see how these conversation fall under that one? Or do you not comprehend how this software threads posts? I said it and you just lied, time to grow up.
No Pop
October 4, 2008 - 22:04 ET by Blonde"Leverage" never came up in the discussion between us....so continue to bray.
You were the one who mucked the conversation up...then hollered "typo"....without evening acknowledging the stupidity of your trying to defend the stupid typo in the first place (which you did, twice).
So keep it up.
I can go on all night picking apart your whiney-assed little arguments.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Blonde continues to lie
October 4, 2008 - 22:10 ET by PopularTechI mentioned leverage in this conversation I never said it was with you! What is your problem?
I defended the typo by explaining it was one. Now you can keep repeating the same thing over and over and it does not change the fact that I made a typo, something I do frequently. You can go on all night lying it does not change the fact that you are a liar.
Bray on, PopT
October 4, 2008 - 22:13 ET by BlondeYou are devolving into one of those Leon types.
Keep it up...it's sooooo attractive.
You argue like a five year old girl, Pop!
Call me a liar again, dare ya.....Double dare you. Neener neener neener!
Sheesh!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Own up Blonde
October 4, 2008 - 22:22 ET by PopularTechYou lied not me and refuse to own up, not my problem keep calling me names it does not change the fact that you lied.
Later, Pop
October 4, 2008 - 22:26 ET by BlondeTo misquote Carly Simon....
"You're so lame....you probably think this post is about you"
Keep braying, though....it's so cute!
Ta.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
...the dog's damned breakfast????
October 4, 2008 - 21:23 ET by R D HelmUmm, J,
LOL-Wouldja hep out this here ig'nernt Geowjia boy heah?
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
The Dawg's Breakfast
October 4, 2008 - 21:30 ET by BlondeONLY YOU DAVE!
I should have known you'd pop me on that little saying....just because of those Gawga Dawgs.....GO UGA!!!! :)
Actually, it's a favorite saying.....feed the bloody dog whatever is in your fridge if you're out of Purina Dog Chow.....cereal, bologna, chocolate cake, mustard, doughnuts, hard boiled eggs, left over caesar salad....like that. The dog's breakfast!
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Gotcha, J.
October 4, 2008 - 21:43 ET by R D HelmI'm a little slow tonight. LOL.
Yeah, well, the way things are going for me right now, little Oliver's breakfast tomorrow is going to consist of grits.
-Sans cheese. :-(
That should be interesting.
Yeah, and let's all hope the Dawgs beat the Vols next Saturday.
GO DAWGS!
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
PT...Your
October 4, 2008 - 21:00 ET by bigtimerPT...
Your statement/question was as plain as day...
If you don't bring in more than you have to pay out you are in the hole as we call it here...
Simple as that.
If you rob Peter to pay Paul, you are the one responsible for what happens with the end results, it is a chance you, and you alone should take.
Not others..
You either make it or you don't.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
No, BT, it's NOT
October 4, 2008 - 21:14 ET by BlondeNot by a long shot.
If you have debt outstanding revenue how is that profitable?
"Debt Outstanding" is a liability (you owe $$). To an outside entity...on a Balance Sheet.
"Revenue" is an incoming stream of earnings (it might be cash, or not...depending). Revenue has nothing to do with a liability, other than perhaps making the provision to cover a payment on that debt.
It's apples & watermelons....or maybe oranges & water-ski boats.
Technical, perhaps. But it matters.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
I know how it works
October 4, 2008 - 21:17 ET by bigtimerI know how it works B.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
Really?
October 4, 2008 - 21:22 ET by BlondeWhy don't you explain it then?
How outstanding debt revenue works?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Explaining a Typo
October 4, 2008 - 21:37 ET by PopularTechShe understood what I meant even with the typo which I already admitted to but hey if you want to keep beating a dead horse have fun it doesn't make it any more ridiculous.
Expand on the "typo" then
October 4, 2008 - 21:45 ET by BlondeAnd answer the bloody question, while you're at it. (Noel's)
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Get over yourself
October 4, 2008 - 21:53 ET by PopularTechI never post my personal information online EVER. I unlike most people understand what privacy means.
Well...that's a definitive
October 4, 2008 - 22:01 ET by Blondedenoument of your quals.
I'm impressed...NOT.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Crying to myself right now while I LOL.
October 4, 2008 - 22:14 ET by PopularTechUnlike other idiots I have ZERO of my personal information online, as in ZERO you couldn't digg up ANYTHING ABOUT ME EVER. I wonder how I did that. Must be magic.
I don't care if your impressed or not, really I don't.
Denounce me or lie about me like Noel trys to when he cannot make his points, it does not change who I am and there is nothing you can do about it.
LMAO! "I don't have
October 5, 2008 - 04:21 ET by contraryLMAO!
"I don't have time for this. You all can continue your co-dependency posts and make yourselves feel all chummy... Frankly, you all don't represent where America is going and you might as well get used to it."
--The Dooper
Why you just did B... you
October 4, 2008 - 21:38 ET by bigtimerWhy you just did B... you don't need my input, you seem to think you know all.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
More than both of you, fortunately.
October 4, 2008 - 21:41 ET by BlondeNice pseudo-save, though, BT.
Demonstrated all of your understanding of the high points of high finance.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
You ever have your own
October 4, 2008 - 21:47 ET by bigtimerYou ever have your own business B?
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
Yes
October 4, 2008 - 21:53 ET by BlondeDavid Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Good, that makes two of
October 4, 2008 - 22:05 ET by bigtimerGood, that makes two of us...
So what is your problem?
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
I don't have one, BT
October 4, 2008 - 22:08 ET by BlondeI understand finance, and all of the applicable terms.
What's your problem?
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
Don't have one...other than
October 4, 2008 - 22:15 ET by bigtimerDon't have one...other than that silly little Bail-Out Bill filled with pork, that we tax-payers are having to pay for, while the real criminals get away...
Not one of our pennies should of been taken form us for this...and all the while no one in govt. held accountable...
Gee, I thought I heard you say the same thing earlier...something like I posted, Not only NO but Hell NO!
Maybe I was mistaken...eh?
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
What the heck was that?
October 4, 2008 - 22:32 ET by BlondeYou're leaping like an illogical liberal now.
"I heard you say it before, I said it now....so YOU MUST AGREE WITH ME!"????
Carry on, though.
David Gregory, do you know which damn network you lie for? ~ Uncle Jimbo, @Blackfive
"If your friends business
October 4, 2008 - 19:35 ET by ckc1227"If your friends business is profitable why did he need a loan?"
Maybe he borrowed the money to start the business.
Obama's Economic plan: more taxes, more spending, more regulation. Prosperity here we come.
ckc
October 4, 2008 - 19:50 ET by Noel Sheppardckc,
No. Most successful businesses have loans, lines of credit, or some form of outstanding debt. It makes it much easier to manage payroll, accounts payable, receivables, etc.
In the case of my bestfriend's company, he expanded a manufacturing plant a few years ago, and borrowed money to do it. Business was booming, but out of nowhere last summer, the bank notified him that he had 30 days to pay off the note. This had nothing to do with him. They were caught up in the credit crunch, and needed to raise capital to meet liquidity ratios.
Sadly, because of what was going on in the lending industry, every bank wanted him to personally indemnify the note before loaning his company money. After sixteen successful years in that business, he didn't want to put everything he had acquired on the line to get a new loan. So, he let the company go.
My other friend caught up in this has millions going in out of his company every week. The companies that are his vendors for raw product are all net-7. However, the folks he sells to are net-30. As a result, he uses his line of credit to smooth out the disparity between payables and receivables. Suddenly four weeks ago, this bank told him he needed to pay this down by 50 percent or they were going to close out the line.
This had nothing to do with his profitability. He's having the best year he's ever had. This bank is just reducing credit exposure to improve its ratios. Period.
Something else that folks don't understand is that many small to medium size corporations in our nation are subchapter-S. Without getting into too lengthy an explanation, such companies basically need to drain all of their cash down to almost zero at the end of every year or they end up being double taxed. This is one reason why many companies keep very little "cash" in their accounts, and therefore need lines of credit for daily operation. Make sense? ns
You answered my question Noel
October 4, 2008 - 19:55 ET by PopularTech"In the case of my bestfriend's company, he expanded a manufacturing plant a few years ago, and borrowed money to do it."
That is his risk and his mistake for bad forecasting.
So the problem is people are risking keeping their savings low to avoid paying taxes? Again who took that risk, who's fault is that? We keep (I am not naming my business) large amounts of cash in the bank and pay taxes on it.
PT, the friendly gov. changed the rules, the banks complied
October 4, 2008 - 20:54 ET by upcountrywaterNoel friends business, (let's call it: Cogs, Inc.) ended because the bank that gave out loans STOPPED giving loans. Cogs Inc. was going very well EXPANDING and building additional seats for additional employees to sit on. Getting loans, paying them off making money, getting bigger loans making even more money. This is called growth, growth is good.
Out of the blue with a bunch of new banking rules, the bank refused to loan Cogs, Inc. any more money. PLUS they wanted the loaned money back NOW.. How on earth do you put that in a business plan??? This is not the fault of Cogs; not the fault of Cogs P/L .
INSTANT cruel rules foisted on Cogs !!
You pay off this loan, NOW.. sounds like a deal breaker to me.
Ya need money to make money..
It's fine to use your own cash, if you want to have a handful of employees, If you want hundreds of employees and a world market share you need some else's cash.
CLIMATE CRISIS
IranianUranium
Fine print of the loan
October 4, 2008 - 21:06 ET by PopularTechIt is fiscally irresponsible to not consider the fine print of any loan into your business plan. Not being able to finance growth will not put a company out of business.
Effectively you have people taking risks and poorly forecasting then crying because the bank exercises the fine print of the loan. Forgive me for not feeling sorry for them.
How have we arrived at this thinking that a part of a contract does not exist even though it is written in black and white?
...and if you take the loan
October 4, 2008 - 21:14 ET by bigtimer...and if you take the loan with the fine print, which ALL are, you have plenty of time before you sign the loan to read it thoroughly, read, ask any questions you have that you want worked out or clarified before you go back to your next meeting with said banker/money lender...work it out, talk more, take time to think, then either sign on dotted line or don't.
Either way, it is your choice....and responsibility/accountability.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
BT
October 4, 2008 - 21:29 ET by Noel SheppardBT,
Are you serious? A company in 2005 borrows money to expand its facility. Two years later, the bank it borrowed the money from is in trouble, and calls in the note. As a result of a credit crunch, every bank in the nation changes their lending requirements, and this company is forced to shut its doors. And you think that's the company's fault? Wow.
My wife and daughter just got back from the mall. There are many stores that have been there for years who have closed their doors. Why would they do this right before Christmas? Because they can't get loans to purchase inventory to stock their shelves before the holidays.
You think that's THEIR fault? Wow. ns
Who decided to expand Noel? Who's Risk?
October 4, 2008 - 21:49 ET by PopularTechIf a business chooses to expand and agrees to a loan that it cannot pay off if called in based on the fine print who's fault is that? Who made the bad forecasting decision?
Hey Noel is Walmart closing?
»→ Risk
October 4, 2008 - 21:54 ET by Cool ArrowA going concern may be capable of sitting on idle money to make payroll and repurchase inventory.
A growing concern has no such luxury.
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
CA
October 4, 2008 - 22:12 ET by Noel SheppardCA,
Actually, WMT has $4.3 billion in outstanding commercial paper, and $34 billion in long-term debt. I guess they must be unprofitable. :-) ns
And $166 Billion in Assets
October 4, 2008 - 22:30 ET by PopularTechI think it is safe to say that Walmart will be able to pay off it's debt.
Seriously, are you drinking
October 4, 2008 - 23:07 ET by Free StinkerSeriously, are you drinking tonight?
If your friends business is profitable why did he need a loan?
Gosh Noel, cry me a
October 4, 2008 - 22:48 ET by bigtimerGosh Noel, cry me a river...all of this is catching up with you in the cities and big big business...if the bank doesn't know that the notes may be called in at any time, whose fault is that, if the people borrowing didn't look into that is it our fault out here, that we have to pay for this...
Don't ever expect us tax-payers out here to be happy about it for one single moment.
Not going to happen...the chickens are coming home to roost, it may take awhile, but it will...as it should.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
BT
October 4, 2008 - 23:15 ET by Noel SheppardBT,
You didn't pay anything for my friend going out of business, did you? Did I suggest you should? Am I suggesting this is your fault or that you should reimburse my friend? Or any other taxpayer?
This discussion was about how bad things in the credit markets appear to be, and how bad I think things are going to get. I brought up real life examples not to evoke your sympathy, but to demonstrate how this is impacting real life people.
Frankly, I'm sorry I brought it up, for the callous level of discourse I'm witnessing here this evening is making me sick. Have a good night. ns
You have a good night too
October 4, 2008 - 23:29 ET by bigtimerYou have a good night too Noel..
It makes a lot of us out here sick, in fact past sick of what the arrogance of these people have done to a lot of us out here for years, yes, years, including our businesses too..nary a word in the press about that...I'm not going to get into it all..
We didn't have one say about this decision about what congress did to us...not one word, and we are suppose to have some kind of...well, golly gee, can't we see if this works, blah blah blah... lobbyists on the hill like crazy...it is all $$$$ at our expense/
Not me, I have had it..
You, are responsible for your own actions, it is high time this country got back to the basics of what we were founded on when it comes to capitalism..get rid of congress, we have it made.
Btw...you never did answer me about what you thought of McCain, the pork-barrel sheriff, coming into the Senate to vote for all of this...tax-extenders and all, that should of been a stand alone bill..I know I asked you somewhere earlier.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
PT. that's funny
October 4, 2008 - 21:15 ET by upcountrywaterNot being able to finance growth will not put a company out of business.
Tell that to Thousands of companies that are going belly up...
CRISIS
IranianUranium
Please prove this then.
October 4, 2008 - 21:39 ET by PopularTechPlease prove that these businesses are going under due to lack of growth.
Up
October 4, 2008 - 21:20 ET by Noel SheppardUp,
You're wasting your time. Since he has refused to share his age and experience, it is quite clear all these months we've been debating a high school or college student that has never owned or managed a company, and is talking completely from theory.
As such, he deserves no more of my energy. I just wish I would have known it months ago. ns
Too bad Noel
October 4, 2008 - 21:42 ET by PopularTechToo bad Noel you have no idea who I am and cannot answer simple questions. Currently I am running a business that is profitable. Actually it is almost pure profit since I have no debt and ridiculously low expenses.
But your experience with friends going out of business is the trump card. LMAO.
PT, only 2 types of business on this planet, goods & or services
October 4, 2008 - 22:08 ET by upcountrywaterSoo you have a business that :
is almost pure profit since I have no debt and ridiculously low expenses.
You sell air, because I'm laffing so hard , i can't catch my breath!
CLIMATE CRISIS
IranianUranium
Not my problem
October 4, 2008 - 22:18 ET by PopularTechPretend I don't exist. Well I do have to pay quite a bit in taxes.
PT, pure profit, and pay a lot of taxes?
October 4, 2008 - 22:40 ET by upcountrywateryou said you have a company that: is almost pure profit since I have no debt and ridiculously low expenses.
Now then: Well I do have to pay quite a bit in taxes.
FYI, taxes are expenses.
Did you know if you get a loan, you can write off the interest on that loan/ off setting your massive taxes..
I have a friend that makes so much money, he spends 60% of his money on advertising. Yes his company is GROWING.
CLIMATE CRISIS
IranianUranium
Taxes are theft
October 4, 2008 - 22:53 ET by PopularTechI don't consider taxes expenses, I consider them theft.
Why would I want to go into debt when I have none? Actually not true I have about $100 of outstanding credit card debt. I don't even have a mortgage, I own my house.
Noel ,It's lookin that way, with all the side tracking crap.
October 4, 2008 - 21:53 ET by upcountrywaterMoney is a tool, a device if one can leverage more, great! Most of the time they (the business) usually help people in the process.
Over nite the banks said give me the ball I'm going home, I ain't playing anymore.
For 99% of the folk who post here, the home is their biggest investment. Take a chance and pull out some money, start a home business.. maybe $100,000...that is a small business.
Some here have business that are much bigger than their homes..5 ,10, 20 times.
Last week a 50 million dollar loan, was possible. Because it was what their business has grown to.
This week ZERO.
BTW pay it back NOW
Growth, is key ! growth man.That's how all this works.
A new game is in town. wanna play?
Brave new world, come next Monday.
CLIMATE CRISIS
IranianUranium
"...it is quite clear all
October 5, 2008 - 04:19 ET by contrary"...it is quite clear all these months we've been debating a high school or college student... and is talking completely from theory."
LMAO!
That pretty much sums him up. I'm surprised a moron or idiot didn't work its way into his argument.
"I don't have time for this. You all can continue your co-dependency posts and make yourselves feel all chummy... Frankly, you all don't represent where America is going and you might as well get used to it."
--The "Dooper
The Risks involved in Borrowing money
October 4, 2008 - 20:35 ET by PopularTechI know various people who had to take the equity out of their home to finance the startup of their business. This is a risk and if it does not work they lose their home. That is how it works.
PT, there is a better way.
October 4, 2008 - 19:14 ET by R D Helm1. Stop Spending Money
-Sure recipe for a deep recession if there ever was one, but your 2, 3 and 4 make sense.
What bothers me is that you seem conviced we are headed for a train wreck economically. I am not so certain.
One thing that is clear, the massive government power-grab that was passed yesterday in the guise of a "rescue" is going to fail miserably. Investors know this, and that was reflected in the continued downward movement of the market right up until it closed. I expect that trend to continue Monday morning
__________________________________.
There are two things the government could do right now that would do much to head this off, or at least keep it from getting as bad as many say it will:
1) End the capital gains tax completely.
2) Reduce the corporate tax rate from 35% to less than 10%. Maybe even 5%, and keep it there.
At least that would get things in the private sector moving again.
I could care less if government runs out of money. Maybe they should reduce their bloated payrolls and stop subsidizing people who shouldn't be in this country. Screw them.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Stop Spending Money beyond your means
October 4, 2008 - 19:51 ET by PopularTechI fail to see how spending money you do not have is going to help people get out of debt and prevent people from declaring bankrupcy.
PT,
October 4, 2008 - 21:03 ET by R D HelmSorry, you left out the "beyond your means" part.
Hell, if everybody stopped spending money, this economy would sink like the Titanic.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Literal
October 4, 2008 - 21:07 ET by PopularTechWell if everyone stopped spending money, everyone would probably die too but that was not my point.
PT
October 4, 2008 - 21:09 ET by Free StinkerYou are aware that we all die someday, whether we spend money or not?
The trouble with
October 4, 2008 - 19:05 ET by MrDebaterthe bailout, as in all bailouts, is that it will probably create another bubble of some kind, which will eventually burst. We will then try to stop that bursting bubble by creating another, then another, etc. The fact is that we have to pay the piper eventually and the longer we put it off, the more severe it will be. I have already seen ads for mortgages with no credit checks, bad credit, doesn't matter...they are now hurrying up to make as many lousy mortgages as they can before the bailout can start...that way, they can send these new "bad" mortgages to fannie and freddie to be bailed out with the rest. Sooner or later we will have to suffer the consequences...I at least have the satisfaction of knowing that the rest of the world is going to suffer right along with us this time.
Yep, this endless circle is
October 4, 2008 - 19:19 ET by bigtimerYep, this endless circle is going to have to end, no matter how long it takes, it will end, reality has to hit...period...
One way of the other, the inevitable is just being delayed for now...
...as we all have zilch for choice bit to pay for this...
I will vote very carefully as long as I am here on this earth, I am tired of looking the other way.
We need to send a message to all...loud and clear as far as I am concerned, those who don't will end up having not a choice but to do so on down the road...as it takes us into the abyss of complete socialism..we will have to crawl out of it when people wake up...and are sick and tired of their hard earned money being spent on those that have, and don't have....instead of our own individual businesses or savings.
Goes without saying those accountable in the govt. are the very people they should start with first, on down the aisle to other areas in business..accountability needs to come to those who did all of this in the long run...
Only way that is going to happen is by the voters...and that is where I give up.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
bt, did you click on that link I posted above?
October 4, 2008 - 19:23 ET by R D HelmWhat is all this BS about increasing the powers of the IRS and exempting them from certain federal laws?
I am not trying to sound like a raving paranoid here, but the more I am reading about this "rescue" the worse it is getting.
Something smells.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Dave, yeah I posted it
October 4, 2008 - 19:37 ET by bigtimerDave, yeah I posted it above here not that far too when I first came on...
Of course nothing smells right, and it will slowly permanente...
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
bt, you mean I stepped on your toes again?
October 4, 2008 - 19:48 ET by R D HelmLOL-That's twice in two days. :-(
Sorry, I have been a little distracted trying to get as much info on this so-called rescue as I can, and trying to find a job at the same time.
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
LOL ...Hey Dave...worry
October 4, 2008 - 20:07 ET by bigtimerLOL ...Hey Dave...worry not...we were on the same wave-length regarding the matter.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
Noel--
October 5, 2008 - 00:19 ET by misterbillDid a quick scan of the document. Please tell me there will not be a quiz!!!!
»→ American Carol
October 5, 2008 - 00:25 ET by Cool ArrowI saw "An American Carol" this evening with my daughter.
Went into it expecting great things. Total disappointment. Embarrassing. Preachy. Ineffective.
Need I continue?
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
Darn it CA..you Riled this
October 5, 2008 - 00:30 ET by bigtimerDarn it CA..you Riled this One up...
Dang it all...I was really hoping this would be a huge hit...especially with Mahers 'Religiousity' (sp)coming out...
Plus I was really looking forward to seeing it.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
»→ Sorry bt
October 5, 2008 - 00:36 ET by Cool ArrowIt has its funny moments, but if this is the flagship of a conservative push into Hollywood, the liberals rule the sea uncontested.
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
CA... Seriously, I thank
October 5, 2008 - 00:39 ET by bigtimerCA...
Seriously, I thank you for your review.
If anybody know humor here...you do.
"America isn't the problem...America is the solution." ~ Rush Limbaugh
»→ SNL skit tonight
October 5, 2008 - 00:59 ET by Cool ArrowTonight's opener with the Palin/Biden debate was hilarious. Again the crew was careful to lampoon rather than sling mud. Maybe they're protecting a golden goose rather than eating it.
The next skit took on the Democrats' hand in the Mortgage Meltdown. They nailed Barney Frank and Nanna Pelosi while again painting President Bush as clueless.
Interesting, SNL postulated the meltdown as a Soros scheme to manipulate currency. Good comedy has its roots embedded in truth.
Is it possible SNL is trying to attract a more diverse audience than in years past? I hope so.
We kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon - Joe Biden
Wow, a new T-Shirt babe, err, I mean, model!
October 5, 2008 - 02:17 ET by R D HelmU'hem, sorry.
Oink. :-)
-Dave
If this nation is to be saved, it will be libertarian principles that save it.
Um...
October 5, 2008 - 17:07 ET by RukusUm... is it safe to come back in here?? : )
Roll Tide! That's all I wanna say for now...
...and... Palin Rocks!!
I'm done.
"Nuke 'em 'til they... oh hell, just shoot 'em!"