For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: Will Obama and the media's attempt to "move on" from Rev. Wright work?
As NewsBusters predicted Monday following Wright's performance at the National Press Club, the media have used the event to assist Obama in distancing himself from the reverend. In the past couple of days, Obama has expressed his outrage, and the press have followed suit, even allowing Michelle to tell us all that focusing attention on Wright is bad for our kids.
Is this going to work? Will Obama and press members telling folks to ignore Wright lead Americans to do so? Or are his words to venomous for most to forget?
On a related issue, will this strategy only work to seal his nomination, but fail in the general election as Republicans revive Wright's words? And, finally, what's the possibility that Wright and Obama orchestrated the Press Club speech so as to give the candidate the ammunition to publicly disavow the reverend? Think about it.
Comments Policy
plausible deniability
May 1, 2008 - 09:41 ET by AgnosticThe media will be forced to cover it to some degree until they can come up with a plausible reason for Senator Obama sitting in the pew for 20 years and claiming Wright as his advisor/friend/spiritual leader.
A co-worker told me that Rush Limbaugh said that Speaker Pelosi is working behind the scenes to get Obama the delegates he needs from Congress. If true it may be true that Pelosi and the rest of the Congress feels they can control Obama and control two wings of the government from the Speakers Podium. She is already changing the rules of Congress to suit her needs and reward special interest groups.
I think you have identified the two Queen Bee syndrome.
May 1, 2008 - 10:41 ET by CTThe Pelosi Polooza has always been about POWER and her leftist positions are a tool to wield that power. Obama is the perfect pretty face empty suit for Pelosi. Obama has no track record or electoral accomplishments of his own making to speak of yet he is now the leading candidate for President of the United States of America. How did that happen? Speaker Pelosi vs. President Obama who would have the power? Of course that would be a different matter with a President Hillary (insert cat screech here).
Carbon Credits Smoke'em if you got'em!
She is already changing the
May 1, 2008 - 10:50 ET by bigtimerShe is already changing the rules of Congress to suit her needs and reward special interest groups.
That she has, from the beginning, and it has been infuriating...and seems to me she was bragging via the airwaves they were going to have the most fair, open, honest, clean House in years since the repubs had taken control, plus of course we can't forget there won't be any more culture of corruption in her House, all the while we still have Jefferson in there for one example......she is wicked in her ways....period.
She does not want Her Highness Hillary to be in charge by golly, she, and she alone is the only Queen Bee...of course she is working towards getting Obama in.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
It is day four, and yet no
May 1, 2008 - 09:45 ET by BDIt is day four, and yet no mention by either the New Yorks Times, or the LA Times of the pending posthumous award of the Medal of Honor to Spc Ross McGinnis who was killed in action in Iraq.
However, the LA Times webpage today leads with the picture of a flag draped casket being removed from an aircraft by members of the 101st Airborne Division with the caption "The body of a soldier killed in April comes home."
So, apparently printing space is not the problem....
Well, BD, the eveeeeel
May 1, 2008 - 10:57 ET by Roger the ShrubberWell, BD, the eveeeeel Right-Wing Mellon-Scaife propaganda rag, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, has reported it. Other than the Air Force Times, that's about it.
Yes, but what is TRULY
May 1, 2008 - 16:32 ET by BDYes, but what is TRULY pathetic, is that in a couple of weeks some moron will comment that he has not seen enough photos of flag draped coffins returning from overseas...
...Yet they seem to outnumber stories of heroism in the MSM.
U.S. kills Al Qaida leader
May 1, 2008 - 09:47 ET by ThisnThatI read an AP report on this event from Fox News early this morning. Very reasonable reporting - gave the facts and background nicely. The last paragraph stated: "Fighting between government troops and the insurgents claimed thousands of lives last year and drove hundreds of thousands from their homes".
Then, I read an updated AP statement from the NYPost at 9:30 this morning and nearly fell out of my chair. Very slanted towards a "the U.S. is just making everything worse" attitude. Now the emphasis was on getting people's opinions. Here are the two opinions:
Analysts say the strike is likely to harden extremists and make it more difficult to appeal to moderate elements in the Islamist movement. I love that -- analysist say.
Iise Ali Geedi, an analyst at the Somali University, says the attacks will increase anti-American sentiment.
I wonder what prompted the AP to insert the anti-American statements? Were they pressured, or is this part of their on-going agenda to turn a positive GWOT event into an anti-American rant? I also wonder how long the Fox News story is going to stay as it is?
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
Re your question about the
May 1, 2008 - 09:49 ET by motherbeltRe your question about the AP at the end: I'm going to take a leap and go with the latter.
What I can't understand is
May 1, 2008 - 09:56 ET by ThisnThatWhat I can't understand is how the facts: "Thousands died last year"; the event: "Top leader (causing these deaths) was killed"; and the slant "Now, because of the Americans, things just got bad" are always presented as logical steps by these leftists? This is just like Iraq and Afghanastan -- "If we do anything, anything at all, we're going to be hated and fail". The facts are just the opposite; when we take action, positive things result.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
The left cannot alow the WOT
May 1, 2008 - 10:01 ET by Free ThinkerThe left cannot alow the WOT to succeed and we keep hearing this same twisted logic over and over again. This reminds me of the Helen Thomas-Dana Perino exchange the other day when Helen kept insisting that it was the US fault for civilian casualties and not the fault of the terrorists that attack and then hide behind women and children. It makes no sense to anyone with a rational brain.
Got a Somali Muslim friend
May 1, 2008 - 14:59 ET by TruthMongerGot a Somali Muslim friend with me here today to help me comment on this:
He says it will absolutely increase anti-American sentiment in Somali, they will not be glad about this killing, these al-shabaab people that were killed are not of the same mindset as Bin Laden, therefore not al-queda - al-shabaab only fights Ethiopian occupation in Somalia - and America is supporting Ethiopian occupation in Somalia right now...
It will work.......
May 1, 2008 - 09:47 ET by OldSailor88For the SHEEPLE! That's who it's meant to work for. It won't work for people who have listened to Wright/Obama and can see that their true colors came out and now they are desperately trying to deny it. Anyone with a single synapse can see that Wright and both Obamas, especially Michelle, are angry racists.
I do not think that they "orchestrated the Press Club speech so as to give the candidate the ammunition to publicly disavow the reverend" Rev. Wright is blinded by his narcissism. This is the most attention he has ever had, and he is wallowing in the squalor of his racist remarks while gleefully basking in the sunlight of his media attention.
Noli habere bovis, vir!
Barack Obama has admitted
May 1, 2008 - 09:47 ET by motherbeltBarack Obama has admitted to being dumb enough to snort cocaine in his youth. He has admitted that he made a "boneheaded decision" to get involved with Tony Rezko. He now says that for 20 years, Jeremiah Wright pulled the wool over his eyes, and he never knew the man was full of so much hate until last weekend.
Why does he now think that he is the candidate best qualified to be President of the US?
Presidents have a long
May 1, 2008 - 10:00 ET by balboaPresidents have a long history of making bad decisions.
Now there's a rousing
May 1, 2008 - 10:08 ET by Ruths husband BenNow there's a rousing endorsement!
I once tried to talk my middle son out of making a serious mistake, explaining to him that I had already made that mistake and paid dearly for it. His reply was, "I have to make my own mistakes" to which I said, "Then quit making mine." We are, as homo sapiens, enabled to learn from the mistakes of others but we are under no obligation to repeat them.
Likewise, hiring (electing) a public official to the highest office in the land who has a long history of making ill advised decisions and who insists on surrounding himself with bad characters (communists, America haters, and corrupt business men) is making a mistake that does not need to be made again.
The point is that if you're
May 1, 2008 - 10:29 ET by balboaThe point is that if you're going to say Obama isn't fit to be president because of some bad decisions, you can probably say the same for every president.
First of all, I never said
May 1, 2008 - 10:39 ET by motherbeltFirst of all, I never said he's not fit.
I asked a question: why, if he admits all these faults, he thinks he is the best candidate? Don't you think that's a valid question?
Usually we find these things out later; they don't put them up front.
If they do put them up front, I think it's fair to consider them.
I thought it was a
May 1, 2008 - 10:42 ET by balboaI thought it was a rhetorical question. My bad.
My point was that I never
May 1, 2008 - 11:08 ET by motherbeltMy point was that I never said he was unfit; I simply posed (maybe that's a better word) a question for possible discussion.
bad decisions
May 1, 2008 - 10:37 ET by AgnosticYes but let us look at a single bad decision: to choose as acquaintances those who have radical ideas about the United States.
To make this mistake once is forgivable. To make it twice is harder to believe and regrettably difficult to understand. To make this same mistake repeatedly and continue those relationships for 20+ years is something that brings his legitimacy into question.
That being said I would question the qualifications of anyone who hadn't made some bad decisions because that means they probably don't make decisions at all.
Present
May 1, 2008 - 10:47 ET by CTOr should that be I be present Ms Pelosi.
Carbon Credits Smoke'em if you got'em!
OK
May 1, 2008 - 10:45 ET by cvgbuckeyeOK, fair enough Bal. Now, tell me what great decisions that Obama has made that qualifies him to hold the most powerful position on the face of the earth.
Don't list to many; just five:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Well, how about just three:
1.
2.
3.
Can you come up with one?
1.
I never said Obama was a
May 1, 2008 - 11:03 ET by balboaI never said Obama was a great presidential candidate.
(with big innocent teary
May 1, 2008 - 11:03 ET by Ruths husband Ben(with big innocent teary doe-eyes) "But I thought Barack Obama was different! Sniff, sniff."
Well that's what you get
May 1, 2008 - 11:05 ET by balboaWell that's what you get for using your conservative vulcan logic "thinking" instead of being intuitive -- or feeling -- that he was just another politician. :-)
My bad. BTW, as I typed
May 1, 2008 - 11:25 ET by Ruths husband BenMy bad. BTW, as I typed the above comments I wondered if I should put smiley faces because I was really just tweaking you. But I figured you were bright enough to figure it out.
I'm on to you, RHB!
May 1, 2008 - 11:30 ET by balboaI'm on to you, RHB!
Don't tell a soul.
May 1, 2008 - 11:34 ET by Ruths husband BenLet's make it our little secret.
snorting cocaine
May 1, 2008 - 10:26 ET by shawn228Motherbelt
I'm not going to comment about Rezko or Rev Wright. I actually admire Obama comes clean about past drug use, instead of admitting or denying it, like our current President. He refuses to answer the question. It is also much better than the didn't inhale debacle
I believe Dubya has snorted coke in the past and I would admire him more if he just admitted it.
admire
May 1, 2008 - 10:29 ET by AgnosticHow much do you admire President Bush if you going to admire him more? just kidding!
Actually I just wanted to ask if you think that most people would jump on him for covering up about it for decades? Using drugs? I'm not doubting that you are sincere in that you wouldn't use that as an example of being a bad person. However, I think many in the media would and since you doubt he is being honest with no real proof I wonder what your real reaction would be.
Disclaimer: I've done many things in my life that not only am I ashamed of but would disqualify me from public life.
agnostic
May 1, 2008 - 10:46 ET by shawn228I truly think the President tries to do the right thing. I mostly admire him that with all the flak he puts up with, he has the strength to not have a drink. That takes character
I believe admitting to mistakes and owning up to them takes character as well
Hey Shawn,
May 1, 2008 - 22:40 ET by RESTLESS 1Bush has no worries. I drink enough for both of us. :)
I believe he snorted??????
May 1, 2008 - 10:49 ET by cvgbuckeyeWhen did he do that Shawn?
"I believe Dubya has
May 1, 2008 - 11:58 ET by ckc1227"I believe Dubya has snorted coke in the past and I would admire him more if he just admitted it."
I believe Obama is a racist, America-hating marxist who molests children and beats his wife on the weekend, and, though I don't condone it, I would admire him more if he just admitted it.
Obama molest children?
May 1, 2008 - 21:57 ET by shawn228Many people have asked Bush that question and he has not directly answered that question once. If he actually admitted he did cocaine, yes the media would pounce, but people always suspected anyway.
Your question about Obama being racist is a fair question. Your comments about Obama molesting children and beating his wife is a ridiculous comparision and no offense, really juvenile.
Hey shawn, maybe dubya will
May 1, 2008 - 22:19 ET by MightyMouthHey shawn, maybe dubya will admit to it on his last day as president as he is hastily signing pardons for terroists and killers with 59 and 40 year prison sentences! What a bong fest that will be ya think?! Not nearly as cool as BJ's last day, but who could possibly live up to that legacy?
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
bongfest?
May 1, 2008 - 22:34 ET by shawn228Sorry MM, not getting you today. Maybe its because I have not hit the bong today. :-)
Don't feel bad shawn...
May 1, 2008 - 22:37 ET by MightyMouth...you didn't get me the first time we had an exchange over a year ago. :-) Believe me, it's not you it's me...
"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
Nothing like things that
May 1, 2008 - 22:41 ET by bigtimerNothing like things that stick in our minds is there MM?
I know what you mean.
Just wanted to throw that in there real quick...lol.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Ahh memories
May 1, 2008 - 23:01 ET by shawn228I remember such a love fest between you, me and bt last year. Lol. I hope that I have put the troll label behind me :-)
shawn... Real cute... I
May 1, 2008 - 23:19 ET by bigtimershawn...
Real cute...
I remember that night well...and all of the posts that you had on there aren't anymore, they were gone that night....by whoever decided they shouldn't be there anymore, you and mobi were way out of line that night to start with...
To portray yourself as some sweet guy who came here is ludicrous....we are friends now, which I am glad of, although we agree on very little, but I have a good memory too.
Btw...when I was saying that above to Mighty about memories and things that stick... it had nothing to do with you, or anybody in paticular.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
bt
May 2, 2008 - 01:08 ET by shawn228I actually don't think many of the comments I made to you were edited. I think It was mainly the blonde jokes I made to blonde.
I already explained that I did not know the players on NB yet. I did not know you were female. I apologized to Blonde the day after and you as well.
I also never said I was innocent, I have admitted my trollishness my first few weeks on the board many times, but I am glad we can put it behind us now.
One thing though.
Mightmouth never did show up for beating up my behind, I thought he said he was going to be on a tear :-)
Wright may die down for now
May 1, 2008 - 09:49 ET by Free ThinkerWright may die down for now but Obama's social circle is going to be a big issue in the general election when the battle is for the moderate voter that will determine who is selected. Character will be a huge issue and Obama will not be able to overcome his socialist ideologies coupled with his relationships to anti-American people like Wright and Ayers.
Our "choices."
May 1, 2008 - 09:54 ET by sarcasmoSpending, spending, or spending.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Sarc,
May 1, 2008 - 10:04 ET by AgnosticFrom the article that actually talks about McCains spending - "McCain is handing around a campaign grab bag of goodies. There are little treats like a summer gas-tax holiday and new mortgages for struggling homeowners, and there are big plums like tax breaks for corporations and families with children."
Two tax cuts and one generic spending comment is not much of an indictment unless you hate tax cuts. I'm not a fan of Senator McCain but that particular article was nothing more than an attemt to insult people who believe in Supply Side Economics/trickle down theories and/or tax cuts.
Where McCain is going to spend real $$ will be taking care of all the immigrants he allows to flow into the country on a free ride from anchor to college graduation.
The generic spending comment
May 1, 2008 - 10:12 ET by sarcasmoScares me, along the the earmarks McCain supposedly doesn't support but in reality no-doubt will when they're called something else. The illegals are part of the problem, but they're also a big part of what's been hiding the real rate of dollar inflation for so long, because each one uses & holds USD.
For me, tax cuts are nice, but compared to all the spending they're a distraction. Once again, we could eliminate the Federal Income Tax entirely, forever, simply by going back to Clinton's last year's spending levels (spending levels which I'll admit I complained-about at the time, a lot!). Minor, temporary, tax cuts which are to be conveniently implemented just before elections don't sell too well around me. If we're gonna do the work of getting tax cuts out of leviathan's obese butt, let's at least have the fiscal decency to make 'em permanent.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
speaking of generic spending
May 1, 2008 - 10:21 ET by AgnosticDo you think that the latest phase of government hiring (jobs that probably will go away a lot slower than they were made available) is the last slap in the face of fiscal conservatives, where ever there may be one in Washington, from this administration or are there more to come?
I see it as one
May 1, 2008 - 10:25 ET by sarcasmoBut I think I'm slowly developing slap-tolerance. :) I just hope all our new employees don't work too hard.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
One of the worst...
May 1, 2008 - 10:01 ET by Prester John...hourly news summaries I've ever heard on ABC radio (in order of "reporting").
1) American consumers worry about having enough money to pay for their groceries as they watch the "inflated" costs add up on the cash registers.
2) LAPD hopes to avoid the same sort of clashes as they had last year with "immigrant" rights marchers today. Note the lack of the word "illegal".
3) Replay of Bush's "Mission Accomplished" comments on the carrier 5 years ago about the end of major combat operations in Iraq with a comment about April casualties.
This stuff is considered "news"? How about propaganda instead?
I saw the "Mission
May 1, 2008 - 10:31 ET by motherbeltI saw the "Mission Accomplished" link to the MyWayNews story on Drudge and read the article.
I thought Good grief!! They are dragging this up AGAIN???
How is THIS going to help our kids? ;-)
They are just shameless.
The handling was as bad as the scandal
May 1, 2008 - 10:01 ET by LibraryLadyWhile I was horrified that Obama could supposedly sit in that Church for 20 years and be "unaware" of the hatred and insanity, I was even more disturbed by how poorly Obama handled the situation.
Do we want this bumbler as CIC??? Heck no.
The one thing in Obama's
May 1, 2008 - 10:03 ET by ckc1227The one thing in Obama's favor is all this stuff is coming out now instead of October. It would have been so much better if all this was happening then instead of now, because, if the media has its way, all this will be a distant memory come November.
I don't believe that the
May 1, 2008 - 10:09 ET by GothampcI don't believe that the Press Club appearance was orchestrated by Obama. I believe Obama thought that his association with Wright wouldn't be scrutinized. I think that Wright is milking this for all it's worth. This is his time to get attention and he's going to get all he can. He's a more hateful version of Al Sharpton--they aggressively seek the spotlight.
I believe that Obama could sit in Wright's church for 20 years and not pick up his hateful ideology. Jesus gave the parable in Mark 4 of the sower. The seed (Word of God) had different outcomes based on the condition of the ground (a person's heart). However, he should have left the church when the message became inflammatory.
And I have to laugh at Alan Colmes trying to parallel John Hagee's endorsement of John McCain with Obama actually sitting in Wright's church for 20 years.
The delusional MSM
May 1, 2008 - 10:28 ET by pocomocoIt is really hilarious to watch. The MSM would make Maytag proud as they are all in full spin cycle trying to save Obama from himself.
You could say that the turkeys have come home to roost on top of Obama providing him a protective shield against those who demand to know who he really is.
It is truly a piteous site as the legacy media, who are in a rinse cycle of their own with no intention of saving themselves, feel that they have, instead, a higher calling to save their Messiah from the evils of the truth.
I predict that after the election, we will see great changes in the MSM particularly in the demise in many of them.
So, let them have their ‘last hurrah’ and think that they are still important when all the time they have been in the state of delusion.
wash cycle
May 1, 2008 - 10:32 ET by AgnosticYou forgot the was cycle. As in they media is washing all the coverage of their beloved candidate to remove all the dirt.
Michelle says that Barack
May 1, 2008 - 11:31 ET by motherbeltMichelle says that Barack wants to move us "past these conversations that divide."
MO Definition of "divide": to criticize or disagree with us.
Letting them define the terms
May 1, 2008 - 10:34 ET by CaringwhiteguyI cringe every time I see the word "torture" tossed around so loosely and increasingly accepted by far too many people. We've let the enemy (terrorists, MSM, Democrats and sadly John McCain) define the terms on the interrogation debate. Remember back to the old days in high school debate class? You started out with a definition of terms. Without a clear understanding of terms and a way to use them to your advantage it was tough to win.
Fun with Greek lawyers!
May 1, 2008 - 11:20 ET by sarcasmoUp next after this lawsuit? Perhaps the creative sexual connotations certain communities have given the word "Greek"!
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
another church raided
May 1, 2008 - 11:25 ET by candancePolice in New Mexico raided another religious compound to remove children after allegations of abuse that have so far been unproven.
I know these children need protection if they are being abused, but I wonder if the government will start using "it's for the children" as an excuse to monitor churches all over America in the coming years.
OMG!...This is just
May 1, 2008 - 11:37 ET by bigtimerOMG!...
This is just precious...I just heard on Fox that Joe Andrew (Indiana) former head of the DNC just switched his support of Hillary to Obama....can you imagine the reaction from the Clintons behind the scenes....after-all they made him head of the DNC...anything that is nailed down in the area of either of the Clintons is in danger of being smashed...he didn't bother to call them either before he made this announcement...oh the heat is on....
Fun for me....sure there will be links later. ...here is a link.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Fear not, folks, man-made
May 1, 2008 - 12:11 ET by ckc1227Fear not, folks, man-made global warming will get here....eventually.
Next up on the alarmist's agenda: man-made earthquakes. What other explanation could there be for this increase in seismic activity?
Fear not, we shall be saved!
May 1, 2008 - 12:25 ET by CobraMan"Next up on the alarmist's agenda: man-made earthquakes."
Fear not, Steven Seagal will arrive in the nick of time and save us.
Climate change masks climate changes?
May 1, 2008 - 12:34 ET by CobraMan"'If we don't experience warming over the next 10 years, it
doesn't mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us,'
Keenlyside said in an interview. 'There can be natural
fluctuations that may mask climate change in the short term.'"
Huh? Climate change may mask climate change? That's what I would call circular illogic.
I can see it now, lol:
May 1, 2008 - 14:09 ET by ckc1227I can see it now, lol: "Don't get confused on the issue. Just because we've been in an ice age for the past 200 years doesn't mean that greenhouse-gas warming is not with us".
This is the money quote "If
May 1, 2008 - 12:39 ET by Dan The Man 2This is the money quote "If you run the model long enough, eventually global warming will win.'' because teh earth has been heating and cooling for ages. It also helps if you ignore some data and fudge on other data.
Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.
Lest we forget
May 1, 2008 - 12:55 ET by CobraManLet's not forget that the Sun is also warming up as it ages, and that the rate of temperature increase accelerates with age as well. Eventually, it'll get so hot that the earth's atmosphere will burn away completely. Now THAT’S catastrophic climate change!
In case anyone was
May 1, 2008 - 13:40 ET by CortillaenIn case anyone was wondering exactly what all has thus been blamed on AGW, behold! Each topic is a link to the source report or article, and there are some pretty hilarious things in there.
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
And, lest we forget...the
May 1, 2008 - 15:17 ET by motherbeltAnd, lest we forget...the basis of the movie "The Day After Tomorrow" was that "Global warming triggers a new ice age."
I kid you not.
From Amazon.com: (emphasis added)
When global warming triggers the onset of a new Ice Age, tornadoes
flatten Los Angeles, a tidal wave engulfs New York City and the entire
Northern Hemisphere begins to freeze solid.
What concerns me is they
May 1, 2008 - 14:12 ET by ckc1227What concerns me is they don't even entertain the idea that maybe this is mother nature's way of dealing with the problem, and without destroying industry and economies at that.
Silence that libertarian blogger!
May 1, 2008 - 12:17 ET by sarcasmoAt taxpayer expense, of course.
And some people still wonder why libertarians give such wonderfully high levels of "respect" to various obese-government jerks...
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
wow sarc
May 1, 2008 - 13:44 ET by candanceThat's censorship alive and well.
Interesting, but maybe not
May 1, 2008 - 14:01 ET by CortillaenInteresting, but maybe not so black-and-white. While I fully agree that Coan misused city personnel and resources, there's another issue hiding in the wings. "He asked not to be named because he wants to continue asserting his right to anonymous speech." The Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of speech, but do we have a right to anonymous speech, speech with no consequences? Does a member of congress have the right to divulge intelligence via an anonymous blog? How do we determine what speech constitutes an abuse of anonymity? This particular incident seems pretty simple, but the overarching concepts are not. My view has always been that we all have the freedom to say what we want, but then we have to bear the consequences, but even applying that to this sort of situation is difficult. Maybe someone should make a new forum topic to discuss it.
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
anonymous speech
May 1, 2008 - 14:09 ET by sarcasmoThe answer is "yep." Read some American history, and you'll find there were people pamphleting (with consequences) before this nation was born, and the USA would NOT have been born without 'em. It's somewhat concerning to me that people in the USA do not tend to know this aspect of our history, IMO due to socialist schooling's aversion to texts like the Federalist Papers, but people on the internet REALLY hate it when you tell 'em they should study more history, for some reason.
Anyway, "Cato," "Publius," and others were writing anonymously back then. No, they didn't want the state's "consequences" because those consequences were death, or violence, or imprisonment, or fines, or some combination. This was the case for a smaller and much less armed state than we live under right now. What "consequences" should a blogger face for telling the truth as he sees it about the cops? I suggest those consequences should not include waste of his and others' tax dollars by a local official with too much time on his hands.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
well cort
May 1, 2008 - 14:13 ET by candanceThere's a big difference between leaking government secrets and complaining about open public policies - those two things really can't be compared.
And why does this blogger have to be revealed? When they thought they knew who he was, what did they do? They went to his house and told him to shut down the blog. If by consequence you mean being told to shut up, I want no part in that.
Since you routinely complain about Barack Obama, should he insist you reveal yourself for public inspection?
I think both of you are
May 1, 2008 - 14:30 ET by CortillaenI think both of you are missing the point. Sarc, what was done prior to the Constitution is really a poor argument for doing it now, but even then, they were writing through anonymity to avoid the consequences (I'm referring to consequences for them, by the way) of their words. If you're offering up the argument that "The founding fathers did it, so we can too," you should be aware that an appeal to authority does not make your argument correct. What would be your reaction to someone leaking all of our troop movements in Iraq on an anonymous blog? Does he have the right to do so without repercussion?
Candance, the difference is the point. Both cases are exactly the same act (anonymous speech) with different subjects. At what point does free speech go too far and demand revelation? It's a spectrum, not just a few points. This is something that really should have already been dealt with, but it hasn't. I'm not even sure what stance to take yet because of all the implications. It bears more than a few moments of thought.
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
already settled
May 1, 2008 - 14:43 ET by candanceThe issue of free speech has already been settled in a variety of ways.
We have this thing called clear and present danger to stop the free expression of security concerns. This is the reason why it's illegal to yell fire in a theater - you are posing a clear physical threat to your fellow citizens.
We also have this thing called slander to prevent us from lying about our neighbors or verbally abusing them.
Then we have this thing called treason where you are actively calling for your government or fellow citizens to be attacked.
If your speech does not put anyone in danger or spread unfair lies, it shouldn't be investigated by anyone. Period. Unless this blogger revealed classified information, made up lies, or called for violence against the police, his speech is harmless.
This guy wasn't leaking troop movements.
May 1, 2008 - 14:46 ET by sarcasmoAnyone with that information is governed by totally different rules than J. Random Blogger who wants to remain anonymous. War's different from civil society. In civil society, some form of anonymous speech is needed to preserve freedom. Will it be "abused"? Yes, probably, but statist abuses from privacy's absence are far greater, as history again teaches in multiple instances.
I fear obese government much more than I fear some idiot wanting to reveal troop movements, but again this wasn't that. This was just a libertarian being critical of a public official who obviously was unable to blog a logical comeback. The ironic results, of course, aren't simply the usual wasted tax money. They're a sudden increase in interest in this "criminal's" blog.
For a more relevant comparison than the military one you offered, I would cite various government/corporate whistleblowers who often remain anonymous -- especially at first -- so pick your favorite. There would be less need for whistleblowers if there were less of an obese government in the first place. Besides, if the larger and more powerful branches of government like any TLA wanted to spend time tracking this guy down for "consequences," he'd be instantly outed. The only reason we're discussing this is that these low level government officials were inept. Funny, because I think that makes his point.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
Sarc, get off the high
May 1, 2008 - 15:05 ET by CortillaenSarc, get off the high horse for a moment, if you will. If you were to actually read my original post, I fully agree that this instance, there was an abuse of authority. I haven't seen anything from Smith that justified such a response, so quit talking about him. The problem is how do we determine when something does justify such a response? What constitutes an abuse of free speech grievous enough to justify stripping away one's anonymity and rendering punishment? "In civil society, some form of anonymous speech is needed to preserve freedom." What document does this come from? I think I missed the "Right to anonymous speech" in the Bill of Rights somehow. "I fear obese government much more than I fear some idiot wanting to reveal troop movements". Would you prefer no consequences for any form of speech? As for obese governments, they tend to form when given too much broad power, not when given strict, well-defined powers. What I'd like to know is what matters, openly discussed or disclosed, should be grounds to revoke an individual's right to anonymity (assuming such exists) and punish him or her? If you think there is no "too far", then say so.
www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.
"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi
You quit talking about troop movements
May 2, 2008 - 09:42 ET by sarcasmoAnd I'll quit talking about the actual story. No deal, just like no high horse here. And the need for anonymous speech comes from the very Founding Fathers history you'd like to ignore by claiming I'm appealing to authority or something. The documents are legion, and I've already referenced them. I think the courts, rather than local or national bureaucrats sans warrants, should define the authority of the state. And I stand by all my words. Candace already enumerated the various exceptions to free speech that are absolutely irrelevant to this case in the comment above mine.
JMR
The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.
RINO Alert!
May 1, 2008 - 12:35 ET by iveseenitallHere in Florida, Gov. Charlie Crist (Republican)) is signing a "green" piece of legislation and holding a Global Warming Conference. His guests include Arnold and Robert Kennedy. He wants at least parts of the Kyoto Treaty implemented. I hear his guests arrived on horseback, not on their private jets (like hell). But worst of all, the hypocrite Crist ran as a conservative. Disheartening, to say the least. We conservatives really have no choices this election cycle either. Sad.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
isia.... Sad indeed...I
May 1, 2008 - 12:44 ET by bigtimerisia....
Sad indeed...I have never cared for Crist, but he sure helped get McCain the vote during the primaries....the 'R' Senator in Florida, Mel Martinez is no better either IMO...he has same views as Crist.
It is sad all the way around.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
bt,
May 1, 2008 - 12:49 ET by AgnosticChrist never claimed much conservatism in this part of Florida because he was too well known and as a Liberal Republican he could claim the accomplishments of Jeb Bush such as they were and still appeal to the AARP which holds great sway here in God's waiting room.
Ag...and lord knows the
May 1, 2008 - 13:03 ET by bigtimerAg...and lord knows the AARP has a huge grip in a lot of states...Oregon is a prime example along with the greenies in huge numbers, ask moderate Gordon Smith who drives me nuts anymore, he is in a heckuva a race...Wa. is not much better either anymore...we have two dems for Senators here in Mt. and a dem Gov. who will not fight against the greenies (openly anyway) who are doing their best to stop shale/coal production...on and on it goes....
What we have here all over the place is pure madness.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
Racism ok in Hawaii OH YEA HAPPY LEI DAY
May 1, 2008 - 13:31 ET by upcountrywaterIf your a haole
Only those with Hawaiian blood, as well as news media, were initially allowed onto palace grounds.
OPPS ok to be white , while in the media!
The POPE says, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
A little more on "hawaiian blood"
May 1, 2008 - 14:06 ET by upcountrywateranyone before 1893
haole 101
The POPE says, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO
I used to run into these
May 1, 2008 - 16:36 ET by BDI used to run into these guys inthe islands from time to time when they would descend on one of the many beach-parks and declare that it was no longer part of the US, but rather part of the Hawaiian Kingdom.
They would usually camp out, set up a banner, and harass anyone they saw as "non-Hawaiian" who dared set foot in the park
Lets just say, when they leave the place is a mess, and they all seem to be typical welfare cases.
Dream Date
May 1, 2008 - 14:22 ET by ClarinetAndrewYesterday on the local TV news I heard a snippet that someone has asked Hillary who her dream date would be. The anchors were surprised when the answer was Abraham Lincoln. So was I, thought Hilliary's dream date would be Rosa Klebb.
“Come on out and fight, ye filthy slobs!” Corporal Flannigan
MAY DAY, no, May 1 is NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER
May 1, 2008 - 14:42 ET by PawpawNMAY DAY, no, May 1 is NATIONAL DAY OF PRAYER! Bet you have not heard this on any MSM today. We had a glorious praise to GOD here in my hometown.
DOW just raced past 13000!
May 1, 2008 - 14:46 ET by PawpawNCheck the markets. Dow just raced past 13000! Oh, but that's only due to the increase in prices of all goods we humans can not afford, that's the ticket!!
Wow, I have found THE website for the big-government crowd.
May 1, 2008 - 15:02 ET by R D HelmActually, Neal Boortz found it first, but no matter, as this site is ROFLMAO funny.
-And not a little scary for those of us who value true freedom. It's A LOT scary. :-O
Think of it as pornography for big-government libs.
What the American people are looking for is somebody who can solve their problems. - Barack Obama, April 27, 2008
→ DC Madam croaks
May 1, 2008 - 15:03 ET by Cool ArrowDeborah Jeanne Palfrey apparently kills self in Florida.
Who's who list?
♣ a seal
CA... Are you
May 1, 2008 - 15:16 ET by bigtimerCA...
Are you serious?
Silly question, I know you must be...man oh man...this is weird...gonna' check it out.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
→ Yep - Tango Uniform
May 1, 2008 - 15:21 ET by Cool ArrowShe's dead. You'll never take me alive copper
And authorities were extremely quick to rule it a suicide.
Let's start a conspiracy theory.
♣ a seal
CA.... Well you know most
May 1, 2008 - 15:44 ET by bigtimerCA....
Well you know most likely given time the kook blog sites will have this as Bush&CO. did it.
Seriously, she was facing 50 years or something, it is pretty rare for a gal to hang herself though as a form of suicide...I think.
Wonder where her little black book is though?
My heart goes out to her mother and those who loved her.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
→ Who'd a thunk it
May 1, 2008 - 15:47 ET by Cool ArrowFOX report says she was hung.
Is that possible?
♣ a seal
CA... LOL..well in these
May 1, 2008 - 15:54 ET by bigtimerCA...
LOL..well in these times we are living in, ya' just never know.
"Never murder your opponent when he is committing suicide." ~ W. Churchill
What's that smell?
May 1, 2008 - 15:38 ET by Tom in NCOh, I forgot, thats the nauseating odor of that liberal buffoon, Jimmy Carter. He is having a book signing at a WalMart near my home, Hope they get it fumigated afterwards, otherwise I may have to shop else where.
Jimmy Carter aka Neville Chamberlain of the 21st Century
Congress Critters leasing high-dollar wheels at our expense.
May 1, 2008 - 21:19 ET by R D HelmWhat a crock this is.
What the American people are looking for is somebody who can solve their problems. - Barack Obama, April 27, 2008
700 Mile Double-Layer Fencing Law Deadline Passes
May 2, 2008 - 00:39 ET by BritcomSource: Cybercast New Service
h/t WorldNetDaily
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Communist vs. Statist '08
Q. Is Panamanian born John McCain a "Natural Born Citizen"
Bcom, How about this plan?
May 2, 2008 - 00:54 ET by upcountrywater