Open Thread

By NB Staff | April 30, 2008 - 11:01 ET

For general discussion and debate. Possible talking point: government on a hiring binge (paragraph breaks removed):

Federal, state and local governments are hiring new workers at the fastest pace in six years, helping offset job losses in the private sector. Governments added 76,800 jobs in the first three months of 2008, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reports. That's the biggest jump in first-quarter hiring since a boom in 2002 that followed the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

Is this good news, or something that should really concern fiscal conservatives, assuming such an animal still exists? :-)

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new deal reborn

So the government wants to replace the private market by hiring workers within government entities?

*cough* FDR *cough cough*

Hey, why shouldn't they? It's been a smashing success for teachers...er, bad example.

Will these government workers get selfish enough to vote for more taxes so they get bigger paychecks? Naaahhh...teachers and social workers never do that stuff...

"Will these government

"Will these government workers get selfish enough to vote for more taxes
so they get bigger paychecks? Naaahhh...teachers and social workers
never do that stuff...
"

My mother being a teacher, I feel the need to address part of that. I hope you don't seriously believe teachers voting in favor of a raise is selfish on their part. Take a look at what teachers earn in this country, especially compared to what people with similar educations earn and what teachers earn in other nations. No person in their right mind becomes a teacher for the money simply because the same amount of education can earn far more in other fields.

Having lived with an elementary teacher all my life, I'm painfully aware that their jobs don't end when the students leave or even when they come home. 8am-5pm at work and an hour or two of grading and preparing lesson plans at home is not at all uncommon, and it gets much worse around the end of each grading period. Don't even get me started on blasted standardized tests and "No Child Allowed Ahead", either.

I fully agree that government schooling in this country is a travesty, but little of that has to do with the teachers themselves, and suggesting that they are selfish for wanting reasonable compensation for the massive workload they deal with strikes me as irresponsible. If you want selfish, go look into the teacher's unions, organizations composed of lawyers and others eager to profit by "representing" teachers. In reality, they rarely represent the views and desires of those their members. Teachers join because of strength in numbers and the promise of legal defense in case of incidents (only to get thrown under the bus when something actually happens), but they're too busy to actually impact the unions' operation, so control defaults to those who haven't the faintest idea of what it's like being a teacher.

www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.

"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi

cort

Sorry if my comments came off insensitive. Believe me, I understand the plight of teachers.

My comment wasn't aimed at individual teachers but rather the unions, the school boards, and overall atmosphere. And I have had some teachers tell me they're voting for whoever promises the most budget hikes.

Unions, school boards, and

Unions, school boards, and the atmosphere (set by the previous), heck yeah, they're greedy as all get out. They care about students about as much as they care about ants on the ground. It's just power and money to them. The teachers are completely different. I've known a few that are in it to fast-track to management (that'd be where the money is) or just burned out and don't care anymore, but they're the exceptions. I've also known more than a few teachers who admit they just vote for whoever promises the biggest raise, but every one of that sort I got the chance to talk with about it admitted that they simply don't believe the system will ever get better, no matter who gets in charge.

They do their best in the classrooms to help students learn and get ahead, but they look out for themselves and their families when they're voting because they don't think their votes can actually help the students either way. To them, no matter who is in charge, they still have to deal with idiotic policies, insensible regulations, irrational quotas, and lobby-chosen textbooks and course material, so the only thing they can actually affect is how close to reasonable their salary gets. The rarity might truly be greedy (and will not be a teacher any longer than necessary), but even most of those who do vote for tax hikes to raise their own salaries are just trying to look out for themselves in a system that shows no signs of caring about the teachers or students. I think a lot of them would readily vote against pay raises if it gave them the freedom to teach the way they need to.

www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.

"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi

Cortilaean, while I

Cortilaean, while I sympathize, one has to remember that the taxpayers who get hit up for the teachers' salaries don't get a say in the pay raise.

I got a look at this a year or so ago when our local teachers were on strike. They wanted not only a raise, but their health plan completely paid for. I heard a guy call in to a local radio talk show and say that he was a small business owner who couldn't afford health insurance for his own family, and now he was going to have his taxes raised to pay for teachers' health insurance if they got the contract they wanted; and he had no choice. Made me see things in a whole different light.

When and where was this?

When and where was this? I'd like to take a look at the details sometime. We had a similar incident here years ago that seemed pretty cut-and-dried at a glance. What people didn't realize at the time was that numerous teachers didn't want to be involved in the strike, but the local union was threatening to expel any members that didn't go along with it. Even after this came to light, the local union just got a slap on the wrist from their higher ups. I'd be willing to bet my left foot that other unions have done likewise. I've said it before, and I'll probably say it till I die, unions are evil. Good idea, originally, but most unions are just parasites now.

Of course, even sans the unions, there's an overarching problem. Teachers are in a situation where their needs are hurting the public, never a good place to be. This happens anytime you have the government running a service that can be provided by the private sector, and it always leads to public resentment of people holding those jobs. They want to be paid according to the work they do, but the money that they are paid with is forcibly taken from the public. This situation makes any sort of equitable solution all but impossible, and the fact that massive amounts of money are frittered away on pointless positions (you'd be surprised), overpaid paper-pushers, and meeting ridiculous, arbitrary standards isn't helping. I honestly don't think there's a good answer to the dilemma without eliminating public education and letting the private sector take over.

www.rhjunior.com Great comics with a hefty dose of Christian and anti-nutjob goodness.

"With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things near to you." -Miyamoto Musashi

Sarcasmo wants to discuss

Sarcasmo wants to discuss spending cuts.

You have the floor, sir. ;-)

“There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.” - Ronald Reagan (1964 Republican Convention)

Actually, today I'm amazed by bank bailouts again.

How come this happens with almost no-protest unless you count the likes of me? Isn't it something that should concern fiscal conservatives because it portends more inflation? I think so, even if it's going on overseas. Hell, Citi's obviously not in great shape either, and taxpayers like me already bailed those particular irresponsible banksters out one too many times during my lifetime.
JMR

PS Dave's tax column, in case you didn't see the other Open Thread.

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

I don't agree

I don't agree with bailouts that are not eventually paid back myself, Sarc.  That's our money that they're throwing away.

“There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.” - Ronald Reagan (1964 Republican Convention)

For me, even a "success" like Chrysler

Is dangerous. Why couldn't they get any bank to make that loan if it's such a good idea? It leads to high level executive risk taking with no responsibility taken by the executives and 100% by the taxpayers.

I have a similar "good idea" for American taxpayers: Pay sarcasmo's way into the World Series of Poker this year. It's only $10 grand plus Vegas-airfare/hotel, and there's a small chance I'd make it into the money -- and an even smaller one that "we" might make the final table and a lot of money. I'd split it with "us" equitably, too. What's the difference, morally, with the Chrysler bailout? (Let's assume I will make it into the money, for argument's sake, so the taxpayers would actually make out ok if the government was this stupid.) For me, there's no moral difference at all, and $11K or so is cheap.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Why couldn't they get any

Why couldn't they get any bank to make that loan if it's such a good idea? It leads to high level executive risk taking with no responsibility taken by the executives and 100% by the taxpayers.  

You're right. Put me down for zero bailouts then.

“There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.” - Ronald Reagan (1964 Republican Convention)

There's one of us...

And he's been concerned for quite a while about the socialist direction of his country & the world despite the obvious failure of socialism...
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

The majority of us here

The majority of us here share your concern, Sarc. 

“There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.” - Ronald Reagan (1964 Republican Convention)

Socialist

America is going headlong into socialism/Communism while at least parts of Europe are seeing the light and moving away from it. And the leftist movement here is antithetical to the principles this nation was founded upon, the principles which made us stand apart as the greatest nation on earth. Sad and disgusting. We are losing our middle class. God help our poor kids.

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

...but somewhere soon a new

...but somewhere soon a new country will spring up from this tyranny - with a government of the people, by the people, and for the people - in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty for themselves and their posterity....etc, etc....

Under the auspices of a

Under the auspices of a benevolent Sahria law and Mullah over the world of Islam.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

pretty doubtful I'd say:)

pretty doubtful I'd say:)

Aout as unlikely as a group

Aout as unlikely as a group of terroists grabbing 4 airplanes and knocking down the World Trade Center in NYC and part of the pentagon and one attempt to do teh White House in?  History was not your best subject I gather?

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

hmmm... - hijacking 4

hmmm...

- hijacking 4 planes for about 30 minutes

- total world-domination via Sharia law everyday

YEAH, THEY ARE BOTH JUST AS EASY!!!

sorry, dan - I guess I just don't know my history:(

1406 years ago, Sharia was

1406 years ago, Sharia was known only within one small tribe in what is now Medina, Saudi Arabia.  Today Sharia dominates the legal traditions of dozens of countries.

You were right.  You don't know anything about history.

well not much about Sharia

well not much about Sharia law history anyway - I'm a Christian:)...

Apparently comprehsion was

Apparently comprehsion was not a subject you excelled in.  You said "pretty doubtful I'd say:)" and I gave you what at the time most believed was pretty doubtful situation.  No one said anything easy or quick, except you after I made my case.  In fact you said "YEAH, THEY ARE BOTH JUST AS EASY!!!" where I never inferred anything like that.

Just stick with the facts.  It is possible and becoming more so every day.  And I never mentioned a world wide Islam, I said "Under the auspices of a benevolent Sahria law and Mullah over the world of Islam" unless you made a Fruedian slip and know that is what is going to happen?  

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

dudes - I am totally

dudes - I am totally b*tch-slapped by your awesome trash-talking!

very sorry, ok - just one nation then

but wait - sarc, newsbuster brown, iveseenitall, or I never mentioned anything about Islam in the first place

what was that you were saying about comprehension again:)?

not your strong suit i guess:(

I brought that part up when

I brought that part up when you said “...but somewhere soon a new country will spring up from this tyranny - with a government of the people, by the people, and for the people - in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty for themselves and their posterity....etc, etc...” and I assumed you meant under an Islamic government so I said “Under the auspices of a benevolent Sahria law and Mullah over the world of Islam”

All in all it was a logical flow keeping with your ideology and beliefs and what is more interesting is that you went with it.  So try to keep up with the flow of things and how they relate, ok?

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

ok finally got it - thanks

ok finally got it - thanks for your patience...

kinda like an Amish community here then, I guess...?

Yep a regular Amish

Yep a regular Amish Pardise. 

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

What / who is making us

What / who is making us lose our middle class?

America will be fine.

i can't seem to find

i can't seem to find mine

i thought you had it

Inflation.

Inflation, but for some reason the first time I've seen anything like this chart on the MSM was just a few days ago on Glenn Beck's show, despite the fact that it's been true for decades. Why? I think it's bias, of the antilibertarian variety.

You be the judge, though, Bal. Why do you think it is that financial "journalists" do such a poor job on something that's the very basis of the economy & their own jobs? Aren't such changes in how inflation is measured an important news story that shouldn't be trusted to anonymous "experts"?? I think so. But as you can see from the graph's time-frame, the inflation measurement dishonesty (and there's really no-other word for it) transcends administrations and includes both "major" political parties. Why, it's almost like those Libertarian guys are right or something, and were-right all along! ;) Nah!!
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

"And the leftist movement

"And the leftist movement here is antithetical to the principles this nation was founded upon, the principles which made us stand apart as the greatest nation on earth."

The truly sad thing about the lefist movement in this country is that it is led by people who will never feel the sting if the country does eventually move further left.  In fact part of their motivation has to be an intent to profit from that move.  Just look at the Goracle.

Anyone think Jane Fonda's kids or grandkids will ever be on a waiting list for health care?  Teddy's?  Russert's?  Alec Baldwin's?   

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last."  - Sir Winston Churchill

Sometimes, I wonder

See whining stupidity below.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Ironically, when

Ironically, when unemployment rose in the past few months, more than once as a result of government jobs being CUT, the media rarely took notice (but this Shrubber did, and duly reported the news to yinz)... 

And now, today's Shrub Report®:

Adolph, did you have to kill Blondi, too? Glad you’re dead, scumbag. On a sadder note, while Adolph was moving on to that stage of existence where Satan inserts pineapples in his butt every day, Col. Darby of his Rangers was KIA in Italy. Meanwhile, this famous picture was taken the same day. Speaking of Rangers….

How bout them Rangers?

Did you know we actually pay México to "stop" drugs from coming into the USA?

Here is some good new out of the City of Brothers on Drugs.

Worst Congress. Ever.

Apparently, there are numerous racist, race-baiting "men of religion" who agree with Wright.

Al Franken: another Not-Ready-For-Prime-Time-Player. Is there ANYBODY running for office on the Left who is NOT a total loser?

Final score: USA: 28, Iraqi peace-loving freedom fighters: 0.

A Culture of Corruption Update.

Mmmmmmm. Do I taste urinal cake?

Eveel Right-Wing Mellon-Scaife mouthpiece newspaper readership up 5%, while liberal Post-Gazette drops 3.1%. In Philly, Inquirer down 5%, and Daily News down almost 10%. How about NYT?

A Religion of Peace Update. Here's another dead child Truthmonger can apologize for. As a bonus, here's another story of the tolerance of Islam for other religions. There you go, Truthie, get to work on your non-rebuttal!

Another example of an axiom of the Left: freedom of speech is okay only as long as it agrees with the Left.

What? His nickname was "Big Mo"? Man, I thought it was "Big O"! Daaaaaaaaaamn.

Happy 26th, Kirsten. Spirit fingers, baby!

Noel, this is for you.

  

And, finally, here's some food for thought

  

"Apparently, there are

"Apparently, there are numerous racist, race-baiting "men of religion" who agree with Wright."

dude, I thought our Christianity was a religion of peace - so what's up with these radical Christian's - preachers like Wright, or the white Christian nationalists, or Ireland in the 70's, 80's and 90's ...? They sound like they're calling for a Jihad or something, man... 

"Don't imagine that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword!"

- Jesus, Matthew 10:34

http://www.ecapc.org/articles/RensbeD_HS3_NotPeace.asp

Blessed are the peace(mongers:), for they shall be called sons of God."

- Jesus, Matthew 5:9

http://bible.cc/matthew/5-9.htm

TM's ministry:

Love your enemy:)

http://www.dougbrittonbooks.com/onlinebiblestudies-irritationandangermanagement/loveyourenemy-lovingallyourenemies.asp

"Brings a knife to a gun

"Brings a knife to a gun fight". Jim Malone, "The Untouchables", 1987

You are outgunned and outmanned as usual, Truthie. Now, hurry up or you'll miss picking up your wife at the school bus stop.

 

yes, like Jesus at the

yes, like Jesus at the crucifixion!

well i got friends in high places too mister:)...

yet another honor killings link, eh - bigot boy?

still desperately trying to pin this on Islam, I see

"honor killings" have nothing to do with Islam

check out "dowry deaths" in predominently Hindu India - about 5000 women every year

or "crimes of passion" in China - not really religious at all 

and then of course we have thousands of Christians around the world having or supporting abortion - so abortion must be Christian then...?

http://www.boundlessline.org/2008/01/christian-women.html

http://www.cclmaine.org/artman/publish/State_House_4/UCC.shtml

all major world faiths forbid honor killings, pretty much all killing actually

rog, please - stop humiliating yourself like this day after day...it's getting truly pathetic now 

Huh? When did I ever say

Huh?

When did I ever say that ONLY Muslims honor-kill?
I never have, because anybody at all familiar with the practice knows it is part-tribal, part-rglieious.

By all means, post all the links to non-Muslim honor killings you want (at least ONE, to maybe help your case, but you don't).

I do wonder why you are linking everybody to abortion articles, though. The UN estimates 5,000 women are honor-killed a year, making your number incorrect.

So, let's sum this up, since you tend to drift off a bit: you have yet, once again, to prove me incorrect. All you have managed to do is NOT comprehend.

You may go now. I am sure it's bedtime for your underage wife.

TM.... Apparently you seem

TM.... Apparently you seem to have forgotten that what someone CALLS themselves is irrelevant. It's what they DO and what they ARE that defines them, labels aside. You should read Aslan's short commentary about titles in "The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe".

I'd have to agree that just

I'd have to agree that just because one says they are Muslim (as they fly a plane into a building) doesn't mean they are Muslim, yes...

State Rep (D) 3rd arrest in 2 mos.

Culture of Corruption Pt.2
(w/ party ID)
http://www.wmur.com/...

(w/o party ID)

http://www.fosters.c...

Rog

Great work as always Rog.

A good thing shawn has the day off, or he would have barked about the scorekeeping: ;-)

Final score: USA: 28, Iraqi peace-loving freedom fighters: 0.

 

Pledge to not support RINOs ever again!

Okay folks, it is

Okay folks, it is day three of the MOH watch for Spc Ross McGinnis, the quintessential "How much coverage and when" will the awarding of the Medal of Honor receive in the New York Times, the LATimes, and other MSM agencies.

As of this morning, zero coverage by the LATimes and New York Times....

I think we're past the tipping point here.

What happens to a supposed "democracy" when 51% of the people are either directly employed by the state, or are dependant on the state (welfare, social security, etc) for their well-being?  It looks like we're going to find out.

Just remember this: Government produces nothing.  Every single time a worker shifts from the private sector to the government sector, our standard of living diminishes by AT LEAST the ouput of one worker.

John this "Just remember

John this "Just remember this: Government produces nothing." is probably the most stupid statement I have heard.  It soundspretty stupid on teh face and gets worse from there.  Think before you post inane arguments in the form of of repeated fallacies.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Please do tell, exactly how is it "stupid"?

Please, do educate me.  Exactly what does the government produce?

For the most part, the government is little more than a transfer agent, moving money from the source (taxpayers) to the target.  Noting is created in this transaction.  Worse, for each transaction there is "heat" lost in the process.  For example, it costs the government about 70% in overhead for every dollar that it distributes in welfare benefits.

It's not stupid

But you've detected an angry government employee, who understands and resents the fact that you're telling the truth.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

agree

I understand exactly where you're coming from. Government people don't invest their own money into their projects and don't create any independent wealth. All of the government's income is directly taken from the taxpayers and used to control their monopolies on certain products. That's what you mean about the government not creating anything.

 

John McGrew The goverment

John McGrew The goverment produces Radars. I know. I build them and repair them. Some parts we may farm out, but for the most part, we build them from the ground up. Our engineers design them. And there are other things we produce that we will not talk about here.

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

*sigh*

We all know that government employees produce tangible things. But does the government, as entity, produce its own income or its own capitol?

Some parts of the goverment

Some parts of the goverment who are on a "fees for service" format do. Now exactly where the money comes from, I am not sure, but I am sure it is tax revenue. We are on a fees for service and much of our operating expenses are paid by the airlines and air ports. We are limited to the profit we are allowed to make, either 3 or 5% is all we are allowed. We do not get funding at the end of every year, and our physical year ends in January instead of Oct, like the goverment as a whole. We have been working like this for some 4 years now, and it is working out pretty well, except we still have to deal with the goverment sticking their nose in everywhere. 

Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!

Actually, that's a good example.

The government actually can and does product tangible goods.  I actually recall using that argument back in the ‘80s when debating leftist economics professors on the differences between types of government spending; specifically monies spent on social programs vs a military buildup, which was a popular debate at the time.  My argument was that there was a greater return to the taxpayer for monies spent on military programs, as they represented capital investment and the production of assets and technologies that actually showed up on a balance sheet.  Social programs on the other hand, with their great heat-loss, minimal tangible benefit to society, where the value of the money spent literally evaporated from the nation’s balance sheet. And I don’t see the need to debate the benefit of the government running “natural monopolies”, such as roads, airports and such.  Except I will correct whoever said that utilities come from the government.  My power and gas come from private sources, and they work just fine.  I suspect that my taxes would be much lower if my trash was taken from a private concern as well. 

So yes, it is possible that money spent by the government doesn’t necessarily evaporate.  However, can anyone here seriously suggest that most of it does not, considering the bulk of the federal budget is spent on entitlements?

I agree with much you say.

I agree with much you say. Deals like this have benefited the SW PA job market, a much better return then money dumped down the drain for, say, Section 8 housing.

My electric and gas are privately-owned.  Trash is private, too, but a new contract was signed for 2008, raising my rates by almost 50%. Water and sewage is local gov't-run. I guess I would consider them to be a "natural monopoly", to steal your phrase... Our electric and gas still has to go to the state to ask for a rate increase, though.

 

Governments provide or

Governments provide or produce a sevice.  I suppose you like to have the electricity in your home when you need it, thank the government and nice roads are good to have, thank the government.  The government is involved in your life and you want them to be whether you agree or not.  In the City of Dallas we produce the water for the citizens and surrounding cities.

Before teh city was involved a private company serviced the city and it went sour because teh private company was out to make money and the yskimped om maintainence.  So many parts of the city burned down because the fire hydrants had no pressure.

You fell into a trap of repeating a lie/mantra and it is repeated so often it is believed as truth.  The lie is teh government is good for nothing.

But if your roads are pothole ridden and the water is dirty and the electricity stops, blame the government.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Because clearly

Privately owned businesses can not effectively produce roads, or electricity, or water. Only governments can do those things. Riiiight...Does anyone else see what's wrong with obese-government "conservatives" these days in this comment? I hope so.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

agreed Sarc

The government supplies roads and DMVs because they created their own monopoly. I know lots of cities where power and water are provided by a private company - and ther people actually get paid pretty well!

Since the government does such a great job with what they have now, let's have them run our telephone service, our cable TV service, our internet service, and our healthcare service. Then we'll pay them to build the cars we drive and cook the food we eat.

Wait....that kinda sounds like Soviet Russia....

 

I am not advocating

I am not advocating government control of everything.  I am saying there are things the government does best and there are some things private enterprise does the best.  The best is a balance where each does what it does the best and most effiicient.  IMO teh government is best at providing services like police and fire and roads and water and regulating for the public at large.  I want you to look at teh road systems before the 1940's and the troubles they had.  Utilities are best if they are provided or regulated by the government.

Like I said teh problem is private companies are in it for a profit and look no further than the next year.  The city of Dallas tried an experiment when it turned its trash collection over to a private company.  In 6 years the company went belly up and the city had to take it over again and the trucks and facilities were trashed becuase the maintainence was skipped.  It did the job at a smaller price with more service.  All because there was no profit involved.

You take for granted the service the government provides, but if it isnt there or up to what you expect, look out.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

But Dan, wouldn't everything

But Dan, wouldn't everything be cheaper if there was no profit involved? Who decides which products and services are to be private or public?

No, and sometimes it is

No, and sometimes it is good to pay more for a service one can count on.  Utimately the Constitution decides some of them and the public decides the rest.  As in Texas where the people, or some lobbyists, decided to deregulate the electric company.  Of course it has not benefited the public as rates went up and service is fractured.

And then you get public private joint ventures like toll roads which are good but more expensive for those who travel them.

Profit is good except when the public welfare is involved, because then we must look at the consequences.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Would health care fall under

Would health care fall under "public welfare"?

How could it not?


Bailing out investment bankers
means "now anything qualifies," IMO, and unlike wealthy bankers, health is actually important to voters.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

For that lets look at

For that lets look at hospitals, is it better to have the hospital there in a somewhat convient location with a wide array of services open 24 hours per day.  A hospital who is obligated to accept you even if you have no insurance?  In this case I say yes health care is important to be under "public welfare".

In the case of doctors I prefer them to be private but regulated by the government.  It works pretty much that way now.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Should the hospitals be

Should the hospitals be owned by the government and run by public employees?

God no.  That would be

God no.  That would be ruinous for sure...

"Utimately the Constitution

"Utimately the Constitution decides some of them and the public decides the rest."

I'm confused. Where in the Constitution does it talk about building roads, providing utilities, or anything else like that?

strongly disagree

First of all, you cannot compare the quality of roads in the 1940s to modern times.

Secondly, I do not believe the government is the best source of utilities. I live in a city right now where power and water come from profitable companies...in fact I've lived in lots of cities like that, and no there wasn't a horrible problem with the outcome. I'm sorry Dallas got a raw deal from some bad people, but not every city has to do just like Dallas.

Third, if you did work for a company that made a profit, you'd get paid better and woudn't be on here complaining about the greedy policemen who keep stealing your funding.

And last, competition drives down prices, NOT monopolies! How come a private school can run on less funding, fewer staffers, and bigger class sizes, and still come out with better results? Profit is the thing that moves any society forward.

I can't believe you're on here bemoaning the fact that someone out there actually makes a profit and you don't like it. That's the platform behind socialism in a nutshell. 

Candace I have no problem

Candace I have no problem with anyone making a profit and if you read all my posts I say there are things the government does best and private does best.  I am saying teh ramifications need to be looked at.  Government is best when there are long term goals and private is best for short term.  Infrastructure is a long term goal, but lawn maintainence is a short term one.

Your assertion taht private schools do the best is correct when teh private schools have the option of choosing who attends and who does not.  And in a for profit enterprise, even church schools are basically for profit, they can pick and choose.  In a public school you are obligated to accept all comers and teh budget of your school and how much money you get to run teh school is set and predetermined.

So your example is slightly misleading, comparing apples to grapefruits.  Utilities if not run by a private enterprise is most likely regulated or serve very small locales.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

all right

This is where we will simply have to part ways. Our government screws up a lot of things, long term or not - I really don't think that's a fair distinction.

But we will have to agree to disagree about the government being better for some services. I think the only service our government should handle is the military and police.

The problem comes in when someone says, "the government does highways better" and soon everyone is forced to pay taxes for their highways whether they drive a car or not. Then someone else says "the government does healthcare better" and soon everyone has to pay taxes for that.

 

cd, the gov is really good at collecting taxes.

The IRS rakes in TRILLIONS with only 45,000 workers. This is far and away the best P/L anywhere in the world.

The POPE says, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO

 

Dan, New Zealand sold government owned things, and privatized

them. One example was the national railroad, gov ran. 50,000 employees, trains never ran on time... When sold the private company used 10,000 employees and the trains ran on time. NZ sold the road services and other stuff. Big government buildings became vacant!

Government is a monolopy , and one can go to jail if they do not want to pay them for their CRAPPY service!

The POPE says, GOD BLESS AMERICA!!

IranianUranium<sleep>New/Infrastructure/repair?/ROFLMAO

 

But if Dallas did that

We'd probably never see post-1 from Dan the Man 2. At least, not between the hours of 9AM and 5PM.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

That is true, but NO

That is true, but NO government is even worse than SOME governmental services. No police, assistance for the handicapped, etc, is a bad thing.

The extremes on either end of the spectrum is quite insane.

 

more like 55% plus - plus

It was more than six or seven years ago that we passed 51%, and were at 53%, according to one report I heard... the story was that the figure was of people who get a monthly check from government, as an employee, or as payment for retirement, assistance, contractual payment, legal award and a host of other causes were named. The take then was that 60% would be the figure by 2010. I thought it would be sooner, and higher, as California went on a monsterous government hiring binge that continues today.

You people or at least some

You people or at least some of you just don't understand what is needed and what is fat.  I imagine all of you like to have plenty of services at hand, roads and utilities that are safe and clean and some yahoo at a government office to complain to when you have problems.  Just because governmnet jobs are in flux does not mean the government is growing.  In the City of Dalals where I work we have a freeze on hiring, which means we must do more with less.

I haven't had a raise in years and teh only reason I am here is teh pension they hold out as a carrot.  Three more stinking years of putting up with people like sarc, with a smile that says if I had my druthers you would be on the floor.

Hehe bad day today.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

I doubt it...

People like me don't work there, but go ahead and try decking one if you want to see what'll happen to ya...
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

The answer to your

The answer to your rhetorical question is "Sarc would go home bloodied and softly sobbing and calling his lawyer".

Considering that you were dumb enough to post your photo on a public website (way back when you were preaching the Gospel According to Ron Paul on a daily basis), your above comment makes for good, if unintended comedy.

bravery behind a keyboard

Whinery too. I'm fearful of none of you, so whine-on, Whiner. Hell, I call it like I see it when the MILITARY guys here whine like little girls, so I'm certainly not fearful of some veiled threat from all the way in Dallas, much less closer.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

Sarc like the Duke said "No

Sarc like the Duke said "No threat, fact" and not veiled.

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

Fact?

I have no proof, so I'll continue mocking you & other whiners as I see fit. Deal with it. You're just whining because you don't like when I tell the truth.
JMR

PS I note this is a convenient way to talk about something besides spending. It's almost as if I'm right about who the big government fans are around here, no??

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

You aren't going to cry,

You aren't going to cry, are you, Sarky-poo? Your ego, as usual, is bigger than your big fat bald head you stupidly posted on-line. Don't blame us for your dumbassity, Sparky. Grow a pair and stop acting like a spoiled little child.

Do thump your chest and create another dragged-out douchefest. it will be a party of one: you.

 

 

Now boys, don't start acting

Now boys, don't start acting like a bunch of liberals and soil the dignity of this site.

But I *AM* a liberal

The classical variety.

And as the thread clearly-shows, I didn't start this, but I'd be more than happy to end it if any keyboard warrior dares, which I sincerely-doubt. I still suspect it's all a dodge to avoid discussing anything like fiscal/inflation issues or the obvious racism of the drugwar, to be brutally-frank about it.
JMR

The tax & spend drug war looks racist in the real world.

hey Dan

I know some government jobs are needful, don't get me wrong. But it's a crying shame that our teachers and police are paid chicken feed so our taxes can keep NPR on the air. Meanwhile the teachers' union lobbies for more spending every single year and nothing ever improves after all the extra money.

And the point of the opener was that the government was hiring people specifically because of a slow private market, not because they were direly needed.

Candace this "teachers and

Candace this "teachers and police are paid chicken feed" is a common fallacy.  Everyone accepts the conditions of employment and can leave at anytime if they don't like it.  Not everyone is cut out to be a teacher, policeman or fireman and like being a pastor it is more of a calling.

Sometimes the pay does not reflect the job, I think no one feels like they are being paid enough, I know I certainly am not being paid what I think I am worth.

More money will not change the quality or quantity of police or teachers.  I am particulary pissed at the police unions in my town because they got a 10 percent raise for 3 years in a row off the backs of teh other city employees in a time of "budget shortfalls".  Yep the policemen signed on for the job at a certain pay rate and then want to change the rules ... sounds like Demorats. 

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

um, okay Dan

You were just complaining about how you get paid chicken feed and only hang around for the pension, then you say teachers ought to just leave if they want to whine about their paychecks.

I happen to know a lot of teachers who get paid far below what they're worth. You borrow money to get a master's in education and the school pays you 30K after you've been there 5 years....that's getting paid chicken feed.

It's simply not fair to say those jobs are more of a calling but I should get paid what I'm worth.

 

Candance

I gotta agree with Dan on this. The problem with teaching is that a degree in it does not necessarily translate to the private sector. If you work for govt., there is a finite amount of money to be made, and because there are so many schools and employees, while there is a super gigantic pot of money for education, there are countless employees being paid out of it. One's skills will always have more monetary potential in the private sector than in the public.

So, while I admire the work teachers, firefighters, the police, military and so on do, they knew what they were signing up for and for how much. If they want more, they can quit, and work in the private sector, but many like the security of govt. jobs.

restless

Two thoughts:

1) We've no right to whine about the shape of our public schools if we keep recruiting the least qualified teachers. You get what you pay for.

2) By that logic, we should all quit our jobs and find one that pays us more. Why bother having workers' comp laws or discrimination laws? If your boss is a jerk, get a new job. No one has the right to complain about their wages on NB ever again. You knew what you were signing up for.

Nicely put, candance

I believe that is game, set and match.

Joe

You're probably right, but as you can see below, I seldom know when I'm beat. ;>)

Candance

I'm pretty sure that you do not advocate taxing the hell out of the electorate to pour more money into education. The sad fact is that money that should go to teachers is tied up in the bureacracy, AKA, superintendents and the teacher's unions higher ups. Privatizing education woud mean teachers would get better wages, because if schools truly had to compete for students, and the monies that come with them, then they would be forced to recruit the cream of the crop. No true businessperson would ever run a business like the govt. runs schools. We have EVERY RIGHT to bitch about the way the schools are run because it is OUR MONEY. If the schools are not going to be run efficiently, then we should have the right to skip out on payments, as we are not getting our money's worth.

 

As for point number two, I would expect most people to know their limitations and strive for the best job, at the most money, possible.

"No one has the right to complain about their wages on NB ever again. You knew what you were signing up for."

Nice quote, but I would say "No one has the right to complain about their wages on NB ever again, if they are not willing to do something about it, like find a better job."

Btw, people can get more education, take classes, volunteer at businesses they might be interested in, any number of things to make themselves available for better jobs. Life is not static.