Possible discussion points:
- What does 9/11 mean to you?
- Where were you six years ago when it happened?
- What do you think it means for the future?
- How long will we be fighting the war on terror?
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“Exposing & Combating Liberal Media Bias”
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Open Thread
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Comments Policy
I had just arrived to work
September 11, 2007 - 10:23 ET by rightsideI had just arrived to work at San Diego naval shipyard, where our destroyer was undergoing an availability. Our berthing and messing facility was a barge tied up pierside. I was TAD to Quality Assurance, and when I entered the serving line for breakfast, I looked over into the mess hall, it was virtually silent, and every one was staring at the TV’s….
I knew something was wrong.
Yes! Have some.
This is going to be one of
September 11, 2007 - 14:49 ET by motherbeltThis is going to be one of those questions (Like the Kennedy assassination) that lives on forever: where were you when you heard about the Towers?
I was at home, vacuuming; when I turned the vacuum off, I heard the phone ringing. It was my son in Florida. He said something about what's going on, and I said what? I don't have the TV on. He said turn it on right now. The Towers were still standing, but burning. I stood stunned, phone in my hand repeating to my son, "Oh, God, this is terrible, Oh God, this is terrible.
A few people asked
September 11, 2007 - 10:24 ET by USA4freedomA few people asked me to re-post this on 9/11 so I thought I
would.
The other day there was a post about Glenn Beck. I like
Glenn Beck, one of the reasons was a few years after the attack of 9/11, he
replayed the whole show that he did on the day the WTC towers crashed. The show
really got to me. Its not that I had forgotten but the raw emotions that we all
went through, were some how softened after a few years.
This is the
letter I wrote, to thank him.
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Let me start off this
September 11, 2007 - 10:25 ET by USA4freedomLet me start
off this letter by telling you that I owned a bar in Hoboken NJ, right across
the river from NYC.
I was
fishing in Virginia (where I’m from) when I heard the news about the world
trade center. I jumped in my truck, drove as fast as I could back north. My
mind racing, so many of my friends and customers work there, my own son was to
work there but a hiring freeze put it off, my waitress and my ex book keeper
was working in Windows of the World (the restaurant on top of the WTC). Driving
as fast as I could, not knowing what I was going to do...I had to help!
As I was
racing along I heard on the radio
the tower fell. I had to stop, this 225 lb ex commercial fisherman was crying
like a two year old. I got it back together, driving on. I got back to Hoboken,
I opened the bar, person after person walked in looking for each other. I
needed something to do, to help, I can run equipment, I asked the cops, they would not let us across the river, so
after seeing all the fire and EMS people waiting by the path train ( the subway
under the WTC) I went to the store and purchased all the bread, and lots of
cold cuts, went to the bar and had every one make sandwiches for the men and
women waiting, for the injured. It was really nothing, but like
all of those people giving blood, it made us..feel better.
We lost a few people in the bar, one named John, just got a promotion and was
now working in the tower, played on the national championship Princeton, La cross team. My waitress
just got out of the last path train, running, with people falling all around
her as she did, (she still has nightmares). My book keeper was not working at
Windows of the World any longer. Pictures went up all over town, with peoples
faces on it, have you seen..... call..
I placed a flag in my window with the caption underneath our flag.. our
flag was still there.
I sold the bar in March of this year, the last thing that
was taken out was my flag, I took it down as I locked the door for the last
time, holding my flag, fighting back tears as I waked away.
On the
anniversary of 9/11, I was riding in my truck, I listened to you replay the
whole broadcast from that day two or three years ago. I felt the same way, mad,
hurt, and sad. I felt the same pride in America, the country that has saved the
word over and over again and our thanks is this. We will make it, I do believe
this will be the greatest generation. I have faith, we all should, after all we
are Americans. All of these POLITICIANS, need to remember...All I have to do is
look up and see John’s hat hanging on the corner of the bar with a small
American flag on it, to remember why we fight. God bless you Glenn, and GOD
BLESS AMERICA
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
This is an addendum to the
September 11, 2007 - 10:27 ET by USA4freedomThis is an addendum to the letter I wrote to fill in the
gaps of information.
http://www.princeton...
John’s last name was Schroeder. When he would come into my
bar he would almost always ask me to play some Stevie Wonder. He had some fake
teeth that were horrible looking just to joke around with the women in the bar.
Once in a while he would show up in an Elvis costume, just for the hell of it.
After his loss his friends never came in because my place
was his favorite place, and when they came in they would get very upset that he
was not with them.
At his funeral service they hung up his Princeton la cross
jersey. There were so many people
in the huge Church it was standing room only, down the isles, down the steps,
to a crowd that numbered some where around three to five hundred in the front
of the church.
John’s body was never found. I heard that they found a piece
of his hip bone.
I would look at the pictures of the missing, on the
telephone poles and bulletin boards around Hoboken and recognize many of the
faces that have been in my place, that I would never see again. It hurt me down to my core.
Every Fri. and Sat. night I would walk out with my two head
bartenders and have a cup of coffee as we looked at the NYC skyline. (we would
let the new bartenders work for a while) Hoboken is right across the river
from downtown Manhattan. After 9/11 my head bartenders did not want to go. I
never stopped going. I went week after week. Looking at the spot where the
towers stood. I wanted and needed, to remember.
So when John Edward tells us: that it’s a bumper sticker
war. I would bet if he lost his son in the WTC, or that field in Pa, or in the
Pentagon or in Iraq, rather than a Jeep he would look at it differently. On the
other hand maybe not..
For me it’s personal.
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Condolences aren't enough
September 11, 2007 - 11:01 ET by GrannyGrump42But they're all I have to offer.
You've reminded me that it's not just the immediate family and friends and co-workers who were left bereft, but everybody who was a regular part of the person's life. There are so many empty places now.
That was eye-opening USA4Freedom
September 11, 2007 - 23:29 ET by SportPoliticsI can't really imagine those problems, haven't really thought about it in that specific way that I can recall in 6 years, here in flyover land.
It hit me here a lot differently, and much less in the real. TV told the story, and since Chicago was untouched, the personnel/personal impact was really zero.
I've been standing under the John Hancock since many times (the Sears tower less so ) , and have been aside it up many floors very close for many hours, and certainly if anything happened in Chicago I'd have a similar problem. In that sense I can relate to the rage to hit the caves. I have thought about it relating to Chicago. I try not to.
I don't think the same thing, the same type of visceral reaction hit here. Certianly millions saw and felt directly with their senses what happened in NY and PA and DC, but something was different here, and certainly in a lot of the USA.
People mentioned and agreed, they said, they felt how everyone was nicer for a while, around here.
So I think some of the problem with all of this is, as we have seen, is it is not directly reality of the senses for many.
I have one client who has a Manhatan penthouse apartment there, and for months with her travel to and fro she would tell me how the hole was still smouldering and she could smell it, she could see it. That's as close as I was. I do have relatives on Wall Street now, but that has happened since 911.
My other thought is - this is how so many are so callous to our Armed Forces and those around ground zero, so twisted and as someone has already mentioned, to them, it somehow can be a bumper sticker.
I suppose for people completely divorced from our big urban center cities, it can often be as if it did not really happen. Impossible to excuse it one iota from John Edwards.
Biggest problem I have is I'm nowhere convinced it's over with. We know they declared the target and hit it 1993, and their motis operandi is to strike again, same target.
So the 4th plane indicates another "job" is underway, their playbook is incomplete. I have a sense the Sears Tower was targeted since then as well, there have been evacuations, based upon some plot - foiled. As has that attack planned on that nuclear plant, where 13 or 14 were caught in Toronto. The Brooklyn Bridge was saved.
I think the public should be offered the large list of foiled plots, as a reminder on 911 annversaries, the DOMESTIC list of foiled plots, it's not small.
USA4F
September 11, 2007 - 19:58 ET by Noel SheppardUSA4F,
I'm crying as I respond. This is why I asked these questions this morning. I hope sharing has made you feel a little better. God Bless! ns
Thanks Noel, It is
September 11, 2007 - 21:35 ET by USA4freedomThanks Noel,
It is such an odd feeling for me when 9/11 happens every
year. Its like that kid in a fight that is crying as he beats he hell out of
you.
All of those old memories show up. I’m killing mad, hurt to
the core, ready to load up and go look for that bastard in Pakistan.
But one thing I always think of at this time of year is just
how great this county is.
These bastards kill thousands of Americans, and still can’t
stop us.
Bin Laden tries to draw us into a war in Afghanistan
thinking that we will be just like the Russians. The result: we kicked ass.
We complain about the loons on the left and still some how
we rise above them.
We for the most part have left the world in our wake in a
short 230 years. We celebrate freedom that the rest of the world envies.
We have elections with out bloodshed, we have disagreements
with out bombs.
The military of this great country has saved the world over
and over. Not that we are looking for a thanks, (we will never get one) but, we
do it because it’s the right thing to do. We rebuilt Europe out of the goodness
of our hearts.
We were the only country that has fought a civil war to keep
our county together and free slaves.
We have men and women volunteer to fight in war, to put
their very lives on the line to protect our freedoms. How can you put a value
on that? Its like the firemen and
police that ran into the WTC to save people. They are beyond special, just like
this great country, BEYOUND SPECIAL!
That is something that Bin Laden can’t take from us.
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
MSNBC this AM replayed the
September 11, 2007 - 14:54 ET by motherbeltMSNBC this AM replayed the Today show broadcast from that day, in time that matched the events of that day. It was amazing; for the first time I saw the second plane hit as it happened, while they were talking, not in a replay. It was just like it was happening all over again.
I think they should play that more often. We have some in this country who want to make us forget and "move on." Have the most recent speeches by bin Laden not taught us that he is not moving on?????
Like the Jews after the Holocaust, our firm pledge should be "Never Again."
How long will we be fighting
September 11, 2007 - 10:26 ET by Chidi NwachukhuHow long will we be fighting the war on terror? - I think that since we are fighting an idealogy, I expect the war on "terror" to be endless. How's the war on Drugs going? Have we won that one yet?
War on Terror
September 11, 2007 - 10:42 ET by iveseenitallWe should be in the war on terror for a long time. Too bad the libs don't understand this. Look how long we have had to fight the war against them. As you witness the left as recently as yesterday with Betray Us ad, you realize the battle against Communism/Socialism has be on-going for at least 80 years. So the fight against Islamo-fascism will not end soon.There is always evil afoot---freedom needs constant vigilance.
NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"
Fighting terrorism will go
September 11, 2007 - 10:44 ET by balboaFighting terrorism will go on for a long, long time. The war in Iraq, hopefully won't.
bal -
September 11, 2007 - 15:20 ET by drillanwrI agree ... Hopefully Iraq will become our strongest ally in TWOT.
In reality we have been
September 11, 2007 - 10:47 ET by bassndudeIn reality we have been fighting the same idealogy sence the early 20th century. The idealogy is world domination, regardless of the so called cause or reasons. The fact is, if it wasent islamist, it would be nazis, communists or some other group with some other name. It matters not if it is in the name of religion, or in the name of some anti-religious cause, the goal is the same. It is only the arguments given by the groups that differ.
Save a SeAL, club a liberal!!
Vittles
September 11, 2007 - 18:09 ET by UnsaneSounds like to me that you think every damn thing is an exercise in futility, that we just shouldn't try...well, ANYTHING.
The people of West Berlin...or, for that matter, Europe, should be very thankful that you were nowhere near alive (perhaps) or near the centers of power and decision-making when it was decided Vittles was a good idea...
And now, for a sentence in Latin you will no doubt hate with a passion:
Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum.
balboa
September 11, 2007 - 23:38 ET by SportPoliticsHas prepared an orbicular excavation surrounded by SiO2.
9/11 means a whole lot to me.
September 11, 2007 - 10:29 ET by ksimm81I was 19 years old then. I was on my way to work and I had left my house around 8:50, I didn't see a breaking news story of the plane hitting WTC because I was watching Maury and they didn't broadcast the news yet.
At 8:50 am, I went outside only to hear this guy yell out loud to some lady that a plane hit the world trade center. My first thought was that it was a small CESSNA plane that hit the needle of tower one. When I got to Broad Street in my town a record store was playing the news out loud on a speaker and they were talking about two planes. I had no idea what was going on then, but I knew that the other bus I had to catch to the mall I worked at took us to an area where you had an unprecedented view of the NYC skyline.
It was a gorgeous clear day so when we finally got there, I saw that both towers were on fire.
We left work at noon that day and we drove to the back of the mall where we can clearly see lower Manhattan. It was covered in smoke.
I didn't know until later that week that my Sunday School teacher Sean Booker worked in the trade center.
http://www.cnn.com/specials/2001/memoria...
Latest Rasmussen Poll
September 11, 2007 - 10:29 ET by BruzillaFred Thompson: 26%
Giuliani: 22%
Mitt Romney: 13%
McCain: 12%
We're Saved!
September 11, 2007 - 10:35 ET by Free StinkerI'm with Fred!
Thompson - Rice 2008
Fred Thompson and Ann Coulter walk into a bar. The bar is instantly destroyed because that much awesome cannot be contained in one building.
So much for "he waited too
September 11, 2007 - 10:38 ET by BruzillaSo much for "he waited too long!"
I'm With Fred
September 11, 2007 - 11:39 ET by Free Stinker:-)
Now, I just can't wait to see him debating Hillary.
And I can't wait to see VP candidate Obama debating Rice (or Kasich, or Palin, or Watts)
I've been listening to a lot
September 11, 2007 - 11:46 ET by BruzillaI've been listening to a lot of Obama's stump speeches, and I'm wondering if he's just smart enough to tell Hillary "thanks, but no thanks" if she offered him the VP spot. This guy has a lot going for him, and were it not for the artificial propping up of Hillary by the MSM he would be running away with the nomination. Looking at how well being a sitting VP or VP nominee has worked out for Democrats recently, I wouldn't be surprised to hear Obama say "no thanks", watch Hillary go down in flames in 2008, and then take the lead in 2012.
Distancing himself from
September 11, 2007 - 12:19 ET by Free StinkerDistancing himself from Hillary would be one of the smartest political moves he could make.
Then again, the Democrats always seem to close ranks after the Convention, so . . .
9/11
September 11, 2007 - 10:32 ET by Six String Spiff9/11 is somethign the Democrats will use to bash this country out of existence. It will be the road paved with all of the spineless politicians who didn't do what should have been done a long time ago leading to the down fall of this great and mighty country. This country has been infected with a lethal amount of passivism. Do anything for peace. Do not recocgnize the true enemy for what it is. We must not offend anyone unless you are a white male, and Christian or Jewish. Just keep watching American Idol and hate Conservatism for no reason. Hell, hate all government. It's 'The Man' who needs to pay after all. Democrats have no idea what kind of fire they are playing with. When the next attack happens, I can only hope our wonderful country doesn't fall over itself trying to blame it's own people. The blame America first crowd is no longer just a small faction. It is rooted deep within the Democrat party, and used as a tool to 'take back' America. Disgusting. this election will be pivitol for this country. Islam has declared war on us, and we have yet to do somethign so small as lock our country's door. No warm fuzzies here.
The American Revolution Continued
9/11 was a wake up call
September 11, 2007 - 10:32 ET by mattmThe 1960's peacenik pacifism and surrender policies of the Carter/Clinton factions were repudiated on 9/11.
This was a wake up call that only a few Democrats woke up to. It's high time for the rest of the Dems to wake up, or at least shut up while the Right (which is right) saves your bacon again.
Who invited the MOONBATS???
September 11, 2007 - 10:34 ET by CTWho invited the MOONBATS to preform at the Congressional briefings? Unless the source of their access is revealed it will be the biggest MSM coverup of the last two days.
Exactly, CT
September 11, 2007 - 10:44 ET by RJI've been wondering that, too. Why hasn't there been any interest in discovering who sponsored these disgusting leftoids?
And it's not like you
September 11, 2007 - 11:20 ET by Conservative_in_mass.And it's not like you couldn't I.D. them, with their pink headgear and all. See who pays their fines, that might be a start.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese. ~ Unknown
Exactly...How did they get Tickets ?
September 11, 2007 - 11:53 ET by JayTeeHow did Code Pinko get past Security ?
How did they get Badges/Tickets/permits to Attend ? ?
Inquiring Minds wanna KNOW !!
What good is a Free Press, if it is a False Press ? David Foote GoE
Where is pinkos HQ
September 12, 2007 - 01:31 ET by SportPoliticsGotta be cali - then translate the dimlib rep. That's how they do it. So Pelooni, or bababoxer, or that snide jackass dim Brad Sherman
http://bradsherman.house.gov/
who actually said ~ " Now suppose we have a constitutional crisis - the congress had passed a law that no funds were to be spent on the war, and you Patreaus, recieved an order from a defiant Bush to bomb so and such anyway, what would you do ? "
Patraeus " Well, I'd check with my lawyer on what.."
Demolibjackassedidiotfromcalifornia : " So, you're saying you'd disobey a direct order from the President!!"
Patraeus " No, I'm...
_________________________________
Now that's one I haven't seen mentioned anywhere, but the kookball cali lib actually setup the whole scenario - then instead of saying " So you'd ignore congressional wishes" - the dimbulb moron turned it into " So you'd disobey a direct order from the President !!!!"
All I can say is, the IDIOT liberals are in office.
I guess flubberbutt dimbo cali half bald black haired feminine goofus meant: " If we make Bush stop spending(our wildest non binding resolutions impotent dry dream), are you gonna be on our side, and disobey Bushies raging war commands ? Oh, and by the way, if you do, you'll be disobeying a superior officer... and we'll charge you with that..."
Mr no brain "gotcha" questioning...he should have kept his lib nut out of the hearing, it was the MOST PATHETIC thing I've ever seen. He's got to be a LOON TRUTHER.
Heads in sand.
September 11, 2007 - 10:36 ET by Six String SpiffHere is something very disturbing that is happening in this country. Sure. Close your eyes and it all goes away.
The American Revolution Continued
911 is just as historical as Dec 7, 1941 for the same reasons.
September 11, 2007 - 10:50 ET by CTThe attack on 911 by Islamofascists is just as significant for the same infamous reasons as the Pearl Harbor attack on December 7th 1941. It’s a date to be memorialized not celebrated.
I know
September 11, 2007 - 11:35 ET by Six String SpiffThat's what I was trying to say. Who wants to celebrate those dates? Not me. I'd rather remember and continue to be furious.
The American Revolution Continued
Thats right, Stay
September 11, 2007 - 15:36 ET by USA4freedomThats right, Stay mad.
Never forget!
Never again!
These are the boys of Pointe du Hoc.
Ronald Reagan- 40th Anniversary of D-Day
Where I was
September 11, 2007 - 10:37 ET by jay_1975I was in the barracks at Yongsan in Seoul, Korea. I was watching AFN and they cut in to a CNN broadcast and showed the first tower. I watched as the second plane came in and went to my friend's room (he is from New York) and told him to turn on AFN. When they started talking about the pentagon we started to wake everyone up (after 11pm in Korea) and told them to get their gear ready. From there it all goes crazy. Every unit trying to get to their vehicles and gear. The motorpools were packed and the roads on camp were getting busy. The gates were closed and armed Soldiers posted at every MEVA (mission essential vital area). We were at a state of high alert for over a month. No one complained, we just wanted to do our part. Too many rumors flowed freely for a while, but things settled down, but nothing was ever the same again.
I was at the US Coast Guard
September 11, 2007 - 10:37 ET by BruzillaI was at the US Coast Guard Training Center at Yorktown, VA. I had just walked into the Quartermaster A School office when I heard a plane had crashed into the WTC. Everyone thought it was a small Cessna that was flown by a PETA protester or something. It wasn't till I got back to the Boatswains Mate A School where I worked that I saw the first TV images.
The image that I saw on 9/11 that impressed me the most, and I only saw it once on ABC News and never again anywhere, was video of the Changing of the Guards ceremony in London that day. Just like everyday, the guardsmen came out, hoisted the colors, and the band started playing. But on 9/11, the guards hoisted the British colors and the United States flag, then dipped their national colors. This is normally a sign of surrender, and this was the first time outside of combat that I've ever seen this done. Then the Guard's Band started playing The Star Spangled Banner in place of God Save The Queen, which was another thing I never thought I would see. That was such a tremendous gesture of respect and condolence to the United States, yet, to the best of my knowledge, it's never been shown a second time.
Right near Flight 93
September 11, 2007 - 10:49 ET by GrannyGrump42I was paying a bill at Windber Hospital, just over the county line from Shanksville. The receptionist was calling around different offices trying to find out which one I should bring my check to, when she started having to answer a lot of calls that involved telling whoever called, "You'd have to call the airport." A doctor poked his head in her office and she looked at the two of us and said, "Do I look like a news bureau? People keep calling me and asking why the airport is closed." The doctor said, "There was a plane crash," and he left.
I thought he meant that some poor bugger's Cessna had flipped off the runway up at Johnstown, just over the hill. The receptionist kept fielding the calls about the airport and calling around in between trying to find who I should bring my check to. An administrative lady came in and said that a passenger jet had crashed, that we'd be getting mass casualties, and she needed some sort of manual to look up a code to properly announce the incident. She leafed around fruitlessly in a binder and walked out.
The receptionist and I gave each other a look and she went back to making those calls for me as I wondered about the flight that had crashed. I figured it must have been a commuter jet coming into Johnstown. But then suddenly an announcer broke into the country music station the receptionist had been listening to, saying that passenger jets had been flown into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon. The Pentagon was in flames, and both towers had fallen. "They're gone," the announcer said. I fell back against the wall as he went on to say that another plane had crashed in Pennsylvania near Johnstown and that all flights were being diverted to the nearest airport but that 14 planes were still unaccounted for.
The receptionist asked if I was okay and I said yes, and I put my check under her pencil cup and said I was sure she could get to it later, in a few days. She nodded yes.
I figured that if whoever was hijacking planes was crashing them near Johnstown, Pennsylvania -- the middle of nowhere -- that they must be raining down like hailstones. "This is it," I thought. "We're at war. Life will never be the same again."
So I went to look for something, anything I could do to help. I saw the administrator lady talking to a woman I took to be a nurse, and I asked what I could do. The administrator said that they were expecting mass casualties from the nearby crash, and that some workers were bringing beds from a storage area in another part of the hospital, and I could follow the other woman to where they were going to bring the beds to move stuff out of the way and help set the beds up.
We went to what seemed a dissued wing, It was clean and furnished but devoid of any activity. The nurse said that we were waiting for somebody to bring a key to a storage room so we could get night stands and chairs and other non-essential stuff out of the way to make room for beds. I was silently conjecturing on how big the plane was, and how many passengers were aboard, and how many would be care-flighted to Johnstown and Altoona and Cumberland (the nearest Level 1 Trauma Centers) and maybe even Pittsburgh, and how many would be sent to us and to Somerset. I wanted everything to be ready for them when they arrived.
Another nurse came in and she said something quietly to the nurse I'd been waiting with. I will never forget, as long as I live, the look on that nurse's face. She didn't have to say a word. If there's anything worse than getting a busload of injured people, it's not getting that busload of injured people. I said, "We're not getting any casualties. They're setting up a morgue in Somerset." She just nodded.
I still think of Tod Beamer and the others aboard that flight and how we were waiting for them, but they'd never be coming.
Not a very sexy story, but
September 11, 2007 - 10:52 ET by dvdaughtryI was skipping my 8am class and Chapel at my small Christain School in north east Arkansas.
In fact I was still sleeping when my roomate plowed through the door and yelled "Get up you piece of #$%@, they just flew a plane into the World Trade Center!"
Still half asleep, I rolled back over. He finally woke me up and we watched the first Tower burn.
Then we saw the second one hit.
I am not for diversity. I am for what works.
30,000 feet...
September 11, 2007 - 10:53 ET by CapitalismRulesOver the midwest on my way to Chicago. When I saw the images on the news over 5 hours later, I wondered why it was not my plane instead. Survivors guilt or something like that I guess, but I wanted to find the nearest recruiting station and take a one way trip to Afghanistan at that moment.
capitalismrules
September 11, 2007 - 10:55 ET by ksimm81I lived in New Jersey and lost my Sunday School teacher in that attack. I often wondered days, weeks and months afterwards why I had to live even though I was no where near the WTC or any of the other disaster areas. I felt survivor's guilt as well.
I was really distraught for a while after 9/11.
I beleive that the libs
September 11, 2007 - 10:54 ET by JimboI beleive that the libs think the "whole 9/11 thing" has been blown "way out of proportion". They know they can't say that, and that causes them great anxiety.
Jimbo says - "There is a fine line between freedom of speech and treason"
9/11
September 11, 2007 - 11:09 ET by HelenSIt means that we stand for something amazing that other people want and will destroy if they can't have it for themselves.
I was between chemo sessions. Lying around on the couch feeling tired and pathetic. My husband had gone up to FEMA headquarters to give a training talk and, no surprise, his talk was cancelled. He called me from there to turn on the news. I did so and it took me two days to get over the horror of what I saw. I watched one of the towers go down and it took a few seconds for the news-caster to say anything because it was so unbelievable that your brain just had to process it before anything could be uttered.
I pray it will be with us for a long long time as a reminder. I would even like it to become an official day of some sort so that we never forget.
For a long long long long time. We will move on from Iraq and Afghanistan but they will always be there. It's like asking when cockroaches will be on the endangered list. It won't happen.
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war" - Shakespeare
Answers.
September 11, 2007 - 11:09 ET by sarcasmo1. Too-long, don't have time to write it now.
2. Right here, at my desk, listening to Howard Stern (whose radio show covered the event BETTER than any other news show on at the time, by liberally stealing from all of 'em, at a time when the bloated and useless FCC was arguing in court that it "is not a news show"!).
3. Bigger government, if the control freaks have their way. Hell, even debate makes me almost a killer, in some minds.
4. Forever. "Terror" can't ever give up, or be stamped-out, any more than poverty, drugs, or various other things big government wishes to invoke using war rhetoric.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Speaking of Ron Paul, I
September 11, 2007 - 12:17 ET by BDSpeaking of Ron Paul,
I so wanted Bill O'Reilly to vocalize the obvious question to Paul in his interview yesterday on the O'Reilly factor.
"Ron, since you have stated that US foreign policy antagonizes the world as a form of 'blowback', are we to blame for the 9/11 attacks?"
I would have PAID GOOD MONEY TO WATCH HIM SQUIRM ON THE END OF THAT SPEAR!!!!
BD... Ron Paul looked
September 11, 2007 - 12:26 ET by Clear thinkerBD...
Ron Paul looked like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming BOR interview. Man did Paul look weak in that interview or what?
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Concur with that. He is
September 11, 2007 - 13:09 ET by BDConcur with that.
He is relying on the old "Dig in at the border and defend the homeland only" canard is the normal high-school libertarian answer that surrenders military initiative and is fraught with peril.
Guaranteed to fail every time it is tried.
More like
September 11, 2007 - 14:17 ET by sarcasmo"NOT what he actually suggested (or did when we were attacked, see Afghanistan vote to get Osama followed by Letters of Marque & Reprisal idea that was ignored)." But nice try!!
And for some real fun, let's turn the wayback-machine to 2002!
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Essentially the 50M bounty
September 11, 2007 - 16:33 ET by BDEssentially the 50M bounty on Bin Ladin is equivalent ot a letter of Marque. Don't see it working so well in the Federally administered tribal area.
It did not seem to shag him out of Afghanistan as well.
Guess for that you need a couple of SOT-A. SHACK!!!!!!!!!
Nope, BD, it wasn't.
September 11, 2007 - 17:03 ET by sarcasmo"Essentially" or not. Hell, "essentially" war was declared on Iraq, except that it wasn't, congress simply once again abrogated authority & responsibility they've been assigned by the US Constitution & gave it to the President, instead. And enjoy that wayback-machine, as I said it's prescient!
The conservatives who don't know what freedoms are eroded remind me of the Democrats when I complained about Clinton's expansions of executive power. They will, as usual, find out soon enough when Hillary takes power just what freedoms they've lost as big government vastly-expanded under this administration.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Sarc: I feel your pain.
September 11, 2007 - 17:37 ET by BDSarc:
I feel your pain. paul has been spiralling out of control in debates and in conferences and has not only proven his un-electability, but embarrases as well.
The difference between a letter of marque and what we currently have is that a letter of marque usually had flowery language as well as the title Privateer attached. In effect... no difference....
I take it you think a letter of marque with 50M attached would have greater succcess than just the 50M?
One of the problems libertarians have in their world view is that they assume everyone sees the world through the same glasses as they do, namely in monetary terms. Want something handled? Pay a hitman to do it or to turn the miscreant over.
Sadly, that is not a common view in most of the world. In fact, much of the rest of the world is based on a warrior culture that is incomprehensible to Libertarians and vice versa.
Hense the success with aforementioned SOT-A. SHACK-SHACK!!!!!
Wrong-again, BD.
September 11, 2007 - 17:50 ET by sarcasmoIn fact, today, the biased news media's keeping it a code-word secret, but he's speaking today at the Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins. Have a look.
And you're again ignoring the Constitution, which -- if followed in the war declaration instance for a change -- would have forced responsibility on the Democrats now-trying to avoid it, BTW...
And as I've shown you right here, I understand warriors and war quite well.
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
A military officer ignoring
September 11, 2007 - 18:22 ET by UnsaneA military officer ignoring the Constitution? I think not. And if you bother reading The Savage Wars of Peace by Max Boot, you will see that war declarations are a extremely rare thing.
You understand warriors and war quite well? Yes, I forgot...as the SUPREME EXPERT on EVERYTHING, you understand warriors and war even better that those who have to actually go out and fight the thing. Obviously you don't understand it as much as your ego leads you to believe - how many times have you suggested that we simply whack various tyrants, as if that can possibly solve everything? (Thirty-four years ago today, that was tried in the case of Salvador Allende: while that act prevented Chile from going Communist, it still portended a nasty dictatorship, this time headed by Augusto Pinochet. So much for assassination as a cure-all.)
Not to mention, you completely ignore the fact that the exporting of representative democracy - witness Europe and Asia - has gone a long way to stabilize the world in the past half-century. In many of those instances, only the use of force could successfully bring representative democracy to various places (or to secure particularly fragile ones). Democracies have a tendency of not going to war against each other. Hence the continued bid to export representative democracy.
Entering places far from home - whether it is arming and training the Greek military in their post-war civil war or the current intervention in Iraq - in order to secure peace and export representative democracy, is simply being proactive instead of waiting for the disease of tyranny to fester into a plague that will surely hit the shores of the United States.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Nope, not a cure-all
September 11, 2007 - 18:26 ET by sarcasmoAnd the problem was started by SUPPORTING Saddam in the first place, just as with Noriega. Offing Saddam, as Dave Barry & I both suggested, would have been risky, but cheaper than the risk of this failed war which has turned into a civil war we're trying to police.
And you're one to talk on ego/alleged-expertise, too, as I have yet to see you admit, even once, to being wrong, on ANYthing, despite your spouting various blinkered views of history (see alcohol prohibition for one example)!
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Yes, cure-all
September 11, 2007 - 18:33 ET by UnsaneFailed war? How so? Why aren't any of the logistical centers I am aware of being overrun, if this is a failed war?
"cheaper" - Actually, no. If the assassination causes extreme instability (in the case of dictatorship they almost always do) and causes us to go in later to intervene - well, there goes your savings - and perhaps will cost even MORE.
Prohibition STILL exists, sarc, as much as that deflates your ego. Texas has prohibition, as the counties can go "dry" by local option. If Harris County wished to ban alcohol, it can tomorrow, and quite legally.
And YOU NEVER ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG under any circumstances...you just slink away from the debate as if it never happened when you are repeatedly shown up, just as you have on those occasions when you whine about how Libertarians don't get elected...not because of charming personalities because of yours, not because of flaky ideas, not because of the poor presentations of ideas that even I am sympathetic to...but because the government is conspiring against them because it is run by CFR-controlled Republicans and Democrats.
I have a ball game to attend. I'll deal with you later.
Oh, and by the way...WWPD?
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Concur on the "Failed War"
September 11, 2007 - 19:13 ET by BDConcur on the "Failed War" issue. I have yet to have anyone prove to me that a single center of gravity has been lost, or a culmination point reached, Yet somehow we have failed?
We teach TOOOO little strategic and tactical logical thought these days. Should be a required class....
So Paul is speaking
September 11, 2007 - 18:31 ET by BDSo Paul is speaking somewhere? Thats nice..... Perhaps YOU can ask him if 9/11 was our fault.
The constitution does not prohibit the use of military force to those actions deemed "Declared Wars." Sorry, it does not work that way.
Just curious, how does your post indicate you understand warriors and war?
yep, it's nice, but it would be nice if the media noticed.
September 11, 2007 - 18:32 ET by sarcasmoI don't understand your Constitutional "analysis" here, and I understand warriors well enough to take a lot of you people on, right here, toe to toe, every day. And as you know by now, I'm not hit and run, you get what you see with me. That, along with my chess ability and history reading, make me understand war and warriors. But I wonder, with with you've said above, about you & the Constitution, since the IraqWar, as we all know, wasn't ever declared....
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
Constitutional
September 11, 2007 - 19:11 ET by BDConstitutional analysis?
Okay, let us refine our observations to the time period immediatly after the signing of the constitution as it will reflect the most prevalent view of the actual founding fathers.
When did the US government actually declare war on the following:
1.) The Shawnee, Choctaw, Mohawk, Wyandot, Miami, Ottawa
Ojibwa, and Potawatomi nations? How about the Spanish during the Seminole War?
2.) Whiskey distillers in western Pennsylvania.
3.) The United Kingdom during the limited fighting in the Maine border areas?
In fact, the first actual declaration of war was not declared until the war of 1812 when the US government had actually committed military force for over thirty years to organizations adisperate as the barbary priates to the Frogs without the nations founders deeming a need for such.
Without such an expressed need, it is evident that the founders did not desire to constrain military force to only those situations deemed "declared."
I seem to get the feeling that you assume that all war needs a proper declaration in accordance with the form found attached to constitution .
(Block one _______ (Name))
(Block two________(Enemy)) Etc.
Ridiculous.....
Response to BD
September 12, 2007 - 07:00 ET by sarcasmo1. Irrelevant. I can go say WWs 1 & 2 were declared wars where we did a lot better than in these world-police actions, and that would be irrelevant, too.
2. Also irrelevant. But note, history remembers & honors real warriors, like Osceola, not their captors/oppressors.
3. Likewise irrelevant. Multiple wrongs don't make a right. Our Founders told us how to do things the right way. That we do not always listen to their wisdom is our political failing, not the failure of the Founders' ideas we don't even try.
Anyway, since you asked above and since it's answered (I'll make the answer bold, just for you, and includ the whole thing so no links to click) below is an article on the JHU speech, and this link has a link to the audio.
Clinton spent his entire administration provoking the very-nuttiest of these nutcases, and effectively recruiting for 9/11 by his actions and non-actions, IMO, but it's been a long-term policy-failure we need to change before we go broke. Intervention in other nations' internal affairs backfires, and doesn't make us safer. Capitalist trade, things like McDonalds and Starbucks and pop music, seems to be what works.
Anyway, I'm about to be away out west with intermittent access for a while, but enjoy the article!
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
http://www.abcnews.g...
Paul: U.S. Has 'Dug a Hole' for Itself in Iraq
By NITYA VENKATARAMAN
Sept. 11, 2007
While several of his 2008 rivals spent the sixth anniversary of 9/11 in
congressional panels debating the future of U.S. involvement in Iraq,
Texas Rep. Ron Paul, Republican presidential candidate, declared at a
policy forum that the United States has "dug a hole for [itself]" in
Iraq.
Paul described Iraq as a "preemptive war" saying it was a
"planned invasion and occupation" of a "country that was no threat to
us whatsoever."
Part of the reasoning behind invading Iraq, Paul said, was "to have another
excuse to keep the military industrial complex going."
Paul Labels Petraeus Hearings 'Politicking'
What might seem like bold rhetoric from the fiery Texas Republican
on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks was actually nothing new for
Paul: His assertions at the Johns Hopkins University discussion were
consistent with his presidential platform and congressional career,
both of which draw heavily from libertarian and constitutionalist
ideals.
Of the Petraeus report and the congressional hearings, Paul
told ABC News, "I think it's a lot of politicking" and "grandstanding
of both parties."
Paul said the general's testimony, which will be used by
President Bush to outline the future strategy in Iraq, missed its mark
by not addressing what he deems "the real issues in Iraq" -- policy and
financing.
"If we as Republicans want to change things, we have to deal
with the authority the president was given -- we have to remove that --
and we have to remove the financing, which we could do," Paul said.
"But this tinkering around with how many soldiers are there and whether
there's progress or not -- I think it's kind of missing the whole
point."
Though considerably lesser known among the Republican presidential
hopefuls, Paul's swell of grass-roots and Web-savvy supporters, strict
anti-abortion rights philosophy and challenges to party dogma
surrounding the war fuel fire and debate in the conservative spectrum.
Paul's remarks on the 9/11 attacks during a May debate in South
Carolina were revisited during Tuesday's event. The congressman made
national headlines when he linked the 9/11 attacks to previous U.S.
involvement in the Middle East.
"They attack us because we've been over there. We've been
bombing Iraq for 10 years," Paul said during the debate hosted by Fox
News and the South Carolina GOP.
Paul suggested at the time that "we listen to the people who attacked us and the reason they did it."
Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani pounced on Paul's comments, calling them "extraordinary" and demanded a retraction.
Paul shot back, "If we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem."
On Tuesday, the sixth anniversary of the terrorist attacks, Paul
was asked to clarify who was to blame for 9/11. Paul said "bad policy
is a major participant in it" but added the "ultimate moral
responsibility falls on the people who committed the ultimate crime."
Throughout his remarks, Paul reiterated his support of
"nonintevention over moral superiority" but argued that he was far from
an isolationist, drawing on the founding fathers and Constitution for
support in his belief that the United States should embrace
opportunities for free trade but should "stay out of internal affairs
[of other countries], stay out of entangling alliances."
ABC News' Nancy Flores contributed to this report.
1.) Please tell me the
September 12, 2007 - 11:04 ET by BD1.) Please tell me the difference "LEGALLY" and "Substantitvely" between a declaration of war and an authorization of the use of force. Legally and substantively there is NONE!
Founding father Jefferson asked for and got an authorization for use of force agains the barbary pirates rather than a declaration of war. His bretheren, IF they thought he was violating the constitutional grounds had every option to take action against him. They did nothing since the authorization was good enough for them. Apparently they "Did know the right way to do things" to paraphrase you.
Same-same James Madison in his undelcared war with France and EVERY federal period Indian war.
SHACKITY SHACK SHACK SHACK!!!!!!!
Oh, by the way, Paul in the article seems to be weasiling....... shackity shack shack....
By the way, Chess is not a
September 11, 2007 - 18:57 ET by BDBy the way, Chess is not a warriors game. It is a game for accountants.
For one of our resident reactionaries
September 12, 2007 - 01:17 ET by UnsaneExcuse me, sarc, but if chess was THE ultimate teaching tool for the military, perhaps you can explain why Bobby Fisher wasn't appointed the CJCS after beating Спасский in 1972? (What a whacked out flake Fisher has become...)
For some reason, neither at ASBC, nor at SOS, is chess used as a teaching tool. I will leave it to BD to speak of the Army officer schools, but in the AF we don't use that. There are some things chess simply cannot teach you. Logistics is one. Sustainment of forces is another.
As a chess player myself, the best description of chess I have ever read was one I read many years ago which described it as an allegory for the entire process of conflict between nations (i.e., think of deploying your pawns as a diplomatic maneuver, and so on; the end game is the actual war). But when it comes to teaching about war and the actual deployment/sustainment of forces, you are better off looking elsewhere.
I question how much history you have read. If you bother reading The Savage Wars of Peace by Max Boot, you will see just how FEW of our wars/military actions have been declared by Congress. Not to mention that in this day and age, it is a very bad idea to actually declare war, for it will tell your enemies what is coming. But seeing as you are a total reactionary, that lesson will clearly be lost on you.
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
The idea
September 12, 2007 - 07:12 ET by sarcasmoThat Iraq didn't know the Iraq War was coming is truly laughable. Hell, the peace protesters here even knew!
JMR
Rally online with fans of Dr. Ron Paul.
For Mr. Knowitall
September 14, 2007 - 05:24 ET by UnsanePlease continue to pretend that we are still living in the 19th Century, communications-wise...
I guess if the Chinese unloaded their arsenal of Long March missiles on the United States, you would spend those fateful 20-30 minutes SCREAMING for the military NOT to shoot back until Congress declares war on China?
(By the way, what pathetic responses to BD. "Irrelevant" in those cases is only a whine that you are incapable of answering those questions.)
Res tantum valet quantum vendi potest.
Chuck Hagel
September 11, 2007 - 11:14 ET by ThisnThatI saw Chuck Hagel today (11:00am) spewing on while "questioning" the General. C-SPAN put the wrong designator up. They portrayed him as a Republican. Chuckie baby had all the Democratic talking points right on cue. And, he was constantly talking up his good friend Biden.
God, I'm glad he's retiring. What a cretin, and dishonest broker.
___________________________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a Soldier. - My barber
Now Biden & Kerry
September 11, 2007 - 11:43 ET by ThisnThatFor Democrats being so much smarter than Republicans, the e