Open Thread: College Majors Get Graded
College professors are always assigning grades to their students but what would happen if the subjects they teach were graded in terms of income-earning potential?
Thanks to the Chronicle of Higher Education, we can now see what the average lifetime earning potential is for different majors. It probably comes as no surprise that majors like "community organizing" or counseling psychology make very little. What might surprise is just how little that is. Chart and commentary are below the fold.
Chart is below (click here if your computer screen resolution stops you from viewing the full-width chart):
As you can see, the lifetime median salary, i.e. the average of everyone up till retirement age in the field with a degree, of someone with a degree in community organization is $38,000 per year. Counseling psychology fares even worse, with expected lifetime salaries averaging just $29,000.
The chart above is something that every parent of high school or junior high kids should keep handy. Certainly it's not going to be popular among college administrators who just want your (and the government's) money.
Hat tip: Maetenloch at Ace of Spades.
- Matthew Sheffield's blog
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Comments
Hmmmmm, wonder if Michelle has seen this?
Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 10:36am.
What will she tell her daughters, after urging people into "helping" careers?
Nice chart, Matt. I love interactive ones, this one is great.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Ms. Obama's "helping" career included a job in the . . .
Submitted by Galvanic on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:46pm.
. . . "Vice President for Community and External Affairs" at University of Chicago Hospitals, which came with compensation of $273,618 per year.
She was also a salaried member of the board of directors at TreeHouse Foods, until Candidate Obama bad-mouthed WalMart, one of TreeHouse's major customers.
Yeppirs
Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:50pm.
In her case, the political gratuity jobs helped no one but the Obama's.
Not bad for an almost disbarred lawyer.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Fascinating Chart
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 1:28pm.
But I doubt it'd change what Michelle tells her daughters... I don't think anyone being urged into "helping" careers are doing it for the money. If they are, then they're pretty foolish.
➚ Won't change a thing, Bos
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 1:46pm.
They teach their kids South Chicago Values.
Just consider for a moment what "South Chicago Values" represents to the average American.
Well...
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:01pm.
it doesn't matter what it represents to the "average american"... because it's for their family. It only needs to mean something for them. They aren't making this a policy issue-so what difference does it make? I guess I'm confused by why Michelle talking about how they're trying to raise their kids is a) offensive in any way or b) any of our business even.
➚ Then Bos
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:06pm.
So you're ignorant of South Chicago values.
Would you be equally defensive of Deep South values? Yeah, I expect you would.
Ha
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:14pm.
I'm assuming that Michelle has a different definition of "South Chicago Values". And considering she's lived there, she probably has a better idea than the "Average American" as to what that entails. So it doesn't matter what the rest of us think-the point she's trying to make is that she's trying to raise her girls with a set of good values. She's not bragging about making them criminals.
And if a politician talked about raising his/her family using "Deep South Values" I wouldn't object to that at all-it's not my business how he/she raises a family. And even so, I would assume they had the best intentions, no matter what any pre-conceived notions I may or may not have about "Deep South Values". Most folks don't brag about raising their children poorly.
This is all just silly.
➚ Thanks, Bos
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:20pm.
You played that exactly as I would have expected.
you're welcome?
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:22pm.
...
Bos,
Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:09pm.
I agree with you but there will be some that will hold that the recent history of the Obama family would hold their statements on altruism as very fake and obvious political maneuvering.
But to your point on going into the various 'helping' careers not being about money I would have to disagree. From the average citizen's point of view perhaps you are correct but when you have the connections of the politicians and the wealthy then there is more money in non-profits than you can imagine (mostly because in one form or another the non-profits get money from the tax payers).
Agnostic,
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:23pm.
I understand your skepticism about tax money going to non-profits and whatnot-but I know a bunch of people who have chosen to dedicate their lives to non-profits. And even with the tax money, and the political maneuvering, there still just isn't much money in it.
A dear friend of mine's father was a former head of Amnesty International-a relatively large organization. I can assure you they were not a wealthy family. They weren't poor-but I know for a fact he wasn't doing this for the money.
And considering the Obama's "recent history" is one thing. But the two of them definitely have a past of altruism-so even if current situations go agains that, I don't see any harm in encouraging altruism. It seems like an honorable thing for anyone to do.
➚ Not to mention
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:25pm.
When my daughter was 10, I wasn't eager to publicly express concern she might get pregnant.
Maybe it's one of those South Chicago values.
Really Bos*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:40pm.
Then why such angst against those that take a road to "altruism", practice a life of celibacy, poverty, service to others, and a life dedicated to the teachings of Christ? Why are the clerics of the Catholic Church such evil people though they too have devoted themselves to altruism? It would seem to be an honorable thing to do dont you think?
It would indeed
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:54pm.
I don't know where I gave you the impression that the clerics of the Catholic Church are evil-and if I did, I sincerely apologize. Because that is certainly not my opinion. As a Catholic I have great respect for those called. There was a brief time in my youth where I considered it myself (which, as I'm sure you all could imagine, would have been a terrible idea!)
If there are those that express this angst and feel that those serving in the church are evil, please don't lump me in with them. There are few higher callings, if any.
Not you personally Bos*
Submitted by cajun2 on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 3:11pm.
But we are talking about the media in general, did not mean you personally
The insults to stay at home moms, the constant attacks against religious institutions, conservative groups, consistently show that to the media it is all about ideology. If you are a liberal and believe in "equality", redistribution, elitism,entitlements, mock morality then you are espoused as some kind of hero to the millions of "ordinary" americans. If you disagree with the liberal ideology then you are shown throughout the media as some activist extremist that hates women, children, blacks, and old people.
It isnt about the money, it isnt about the "calling" to altruism or in libs case, activism. It is always about mocking the idea that humans have the ability to become independent and self sufficient without the ever trustworthy and benevelant government. Anyone or any institution that does not believe in the liberal progressive efforts to move toward a socialist society is deemed as anti, selfish and greedy.
A delutional view of reality is evidenced by blatant hypocricy.
Question for Twitter users:
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 10:42am.
A tweet ended up in my timeline last night (seen here) and I'm wondering how it got there. I don't follow this group -for obvious reasons- in fact, I've never heard of them. What's not shown is a small icon at the bottom left that said "Promoted by RI4A". Does Twitter promote stuff they like for all users? Is there another explanation for something showing up in your timeline that wouldn't otherwise be there? I thought this was very odd; and could have ranging implications.
What about percent employed vs. graduated...??
Submitted by wizardjr on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 11:32am.
I think an even more important figure is how many graduates actually work in their field. Multiply that ratio against the implied incomes and see what you get. I would imagine the income slope would increase significantly.
Starbucks employees by major...
Submitted by GW on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 1:13pm.
I'd like to see that figure, too!
This chart seems a bit off.
Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 11:46am.
This chart seems a bit off. And it did not include Political Science.
Political Science
Submitted by Clyde Gatton on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:28pm.
Hmmm...might want to look again. Political science is up near the top (third from the top to be exact) in the social science category.
As an aside, social studies would be a better description of the category...calling these studies 'science' is just an attempt to make the indefensible relevant. :o)
V/R
Clyde
"...the aspirants to tyranny are either the...men of the state, who in democracies are demagogues,... or those who hold great offices, and have a long tenure.." - Aristotle, Politics, c350BC
Great point, Clyde
Submitted by Galvanic on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 3:14pm.
The use of the word 'science' to describe those fields harkens back to the late 19th/early 20th Centuries, and were the inspiration and tools of progressivism.
Wonder if they could include
Submitted by The Glen on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:26pm.
Wonder if they could include the cost of those degrees to compare on a cost analysis. See who is spending $100k for a job that pays $30k.
If o'bama has his way, you
Submitted by ThisnThat on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:52pm.
If o'bama has his way, you will soon be spending $100K for another person's $30K job (or $50K unemployment benefits, wellfare, medicaid, food stamps, cell phone, baby sitting, housing assistance, etc.). Because it's just not right that the "fortunate few" get to enjoy life at the expense of the 99%.
__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court
It won't be long before
Submitted by ThisnThat on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 12:59pm.
It won't be long before o'bama or the OWS gang starts to pressure colleges to cancel the top money-making subject -- Petroleum Engineering. O'bama will probably propose some kind of tax on everyone who takes that subject; or at least penalize students by ensuring that they become ineligible for a student loan.
__________
“Didn't win the Medal of Honor? Didn't even serve? Then lie about it. We'll support you." — 9th Circuit Court
TnT, Yea, how about the Petroleum Engineer, on the Horizion
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 1:28pm.
BP Engineer Arrested On Oil Spill Related Charges, WRONG GUY
The spill was an active crime scene and the U.S. Department of Justice was watching closely.
If the government wants a settlement, might I recommend that they arrest someone who was responsible for the spill, not the guy who was trying to stop it.
Sooo, the income for this guy will necessarily plummet.
You Didn't Build That.
Thanks for this
Submitted by GW on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 1:13pm.
It confirms what I've been thinking along these lines for about 5 years now. I'll tell my kids, "Don't waste your time or money in college unless it's for job training. If you want to get cultured and enlightened, I have a set of books for you to read."
On second thought, I'll have them read those books anyway. One of the first that comes to mind is that Paul Ehrlich book "The Population Bomb". I want them to see how long the enviro-whacks have been feeding us that nonsense and how wrong they've been since the beginning.
The current college
Submitted by Gat New York on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:06pm.
The current college educational system has not been about developing young people for careers which is what it should be.
I don't mind courses in comparative literature but other than teaching it what is one supposed to do with it?
The system needs to be changed. Instead of declaring a "major" by the end of he second year a student should be mandated to declare a career choice instead of a major, and for the final two years be educated to prepare for that career including an internship.
That chart only points out eventual income. What it does not show is what these people ended up doing for a career versus their major, or how their college experience prepared them.
There are those that are pre-med, science, engineering, education, and economic majors that have already used their college experience to get started in a career regardless of the income level.
ou will notice that I did not include lawyers. There is no such thing as pre-law since you can major in anthropology, graduate with a C-, pass the LSAT, and some law school will accept you. Today anyone can be a lawyer and it is the most overpaid and undereducated profession there is.
Then there are those curricula like political science, or sociology, or anthropology, or comparative literature that need to be better directed. By the time a student becomes a Junior in college, the advisors of those majors must have career path options for students who want to focus on those subjects. And if they cannot, then have them only as elective subjects or, better yet, as "GW" previously commented, have them get a set of books and stop wasting money.
Fascinating Chart
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:07pm.
Matthew. But I hope you're not implying that wage earning potential is the only relevant criterion for considering a trade or profession. Most people choose a career by considering more than the potential income earned-and many choose a path despite the knowledge that it will never earn them much.
Otherwise there would be no teachers or social workers. And I, personally, would hate to live in a world populated solely by "petroleum engineers".
➚ You're kidding, right?
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:16pm.
teachers and social workers?
Wow, you won't let go of that government tit for a second, will you?
haha
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:24pm.
no, I'm not kidding... I definitely don't want to live in a world without educators... I didn't realize that meant that I was a pampered baby refusing to let go of a government tit...
I guess you'd rather living in a world without any schools? I'm confused.
➚ That's not it
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:27pm.
You deliberately chose government jobs, knowing they pay much better than the graph suggests. Have you never heard of pensions and healthcare benefits?
Both jobs you listed have those benefits guaranteed.
Whew!
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:49pm.
Ok, good! I thought you were trying to make the argument that we didn't need teachers. Ok, same page.
You don't trust this graph-ok, I can work with that.
I wasn't "deliberately" choosing government jobs. I chose jobs that don't pay too amazingly well-even if you consider pensions and healthcare benefits. They pay well enough, but I don't particularly want my teacher living like a pauper. It's not a monastic order.
Anyhow, I love this bizarre assumption that teachers and social workers are living like kings on the government dime. Not that the pensions and whatnot don't need to be reconsidered, but they aren't making investment banker money by conning our kids' parents.
And I thought we were operating under the assumption that this graph was accurate-is only lying when it doesn't support your argument, but telling the truth when it does?
Bos, Pack the planet with social workers and teachers.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:48pm.
Community social leader spewing a lefty green puke, spinach powered world.
Hosing us with 5 buck a gallon gasoline.
Having a fleet of "petroleum engineers", teaching me a thing or two on how to drill for my own oil, priceless.
Cash for clunkers is calling for your car, give it up!
Those who can do, those who can't teach...
You Didn't Build That.
I'm certainly not arguing for
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:59pm.
I'm certainly not arguing for a world of only teachers and social workers-sorry if that's what you thought I was implying. The world would suck if there was a single vocation-no matter what that profession. I would like to live in a world with both teachers and petroleum engineers.
Also, I hate that old "those who can" nonsense. I'm friends with many teachers, and I have great respect for them. They all "can". But instead the "Choose". Big difference. (*edit* I'm sure that they "all" can't "can"... but you get my point.-I don't like that gross generalization).
Bos,Friendly with any teachers, that are doing home-schooling.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 3:34pm.
You have a problem with BIG OIL well here's BIG SCHOOL...
That drive millions into debt...
Student loans top a TRILLION.
Tell me none of teacher friends laugh in glee over this, blame on unions er...oh whatever.
This seems unconscionable when estimates are that almost 200,000 children are educated at home in California. The Court's suggestion that they should all be subject to criminal sanctions would be comical, if it weren't so serious.
You Didn't Build That.
You're making
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 3:47pm.
alot of assumptions here... I don't believe I've ever attacked "BIG OIL" on this site. I guess I'm not a huge fan, but I'm also not particularly a real detractor either.
Also, I'll be first in line to complain that higher education is way over priced-so the student loan debt statistics don't hit me in the way you're intending.
And I had not heard this about the home schooling-but I can promise that my "teacher friends" aren't "laughing in glee" about it. None of them are in CA, so I'm not sure if they're even aware of it. And I've never attacked home schooling either-it wouldn't be my personal choice for my children, but I don't have any problems with it. It's the parents' decision. I'm sure there are those that would choose to attack home schooling, but don't lump me in with them.
Not to worry, Bos, as your posts make it easy to ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 5:48pm.
"lump" you.
Right in there with any of the other lib trolls, who, when not praising Obama on high or denigrating Republicans or conservatives; are busy spouting the "feel good" lib bullshit while maintaining they are here just to debate civilly, because, they all "shudder" at the unwarranted and 'unfair' name calling directed at them while they are pissing down our legs and telling us it is raining.
If you choose to be a liberal, fine.
My choosing to consider you a fool, in my book, is also fine.
MD
Ok
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 5:50pm.
cool! Same goes for you!
Well, Bos, that's almost up there with ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 04/26/2012 - 12:53am.
"I know you are; but what am I?"
Keep trying, cliche' breath.
MD
Ha!
Submitted by BosTarus on Thu, 04/26/2012 - 2:21pm.
Sorry, a childish response to a childish post. You chose to step outside the topic of discussion just to call me a fool-therefore I didn't treat your post with the utmost respect.
Seeing as how you, Bos, are a ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Thu, 04/26/2012 - 9:45pm.
a dyed-in-the-wool liberal dipshit, if you EVER felt the urge to respect anything I posted, that was directed at you, I would know I had done something seriously wrong.
You are a putz,
MD
I know what you are,
Submitted by BosTarus on Fri, 04/27/2012 - 5:23pm.
but what am I?
Well Bos, the phrase liberal ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 04/27/2012 - 7:42pm.
asshole comes to mind.
MD
Against my better judgement...
Submitted by BosTarus on Fri, 04/27/2012 - 8:11pm.
I know what you are, but what am I?
Wow.
Submitted by NC Cop on Fri, 04/27/2012 - 8:14pm.
Just wow.
:o) ---
Submitted by matthewdean on Sat, 04/28/2012 - 2:41am.
;o)
MD
Go ahead and tell that flock of teacher friends, U ♥ BIG OIL
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 5:58pm.
Dare ya. Even if you are joking, they will NEVER forgive you.
Be honest when was the last time you thanked, BIG OIL for anything.
Sorry Pal, O'bama cut in line ahead of your concerns, over trillion dollar pupal loans.
Well then...do you really live in..
OKLAHOMA: The state has a constitutional provision which appears to guarantee the right to homeschool, but no specific statutes on the subject. There are no mandatory testing or teacher certification requirements.
You Didn't Build That.
Haha
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 6:16pm.
first off, I was trying to say that I don't have any strong opinions about "BIG OIL". Not one of my pet issues. But even if I did, I wouldn't be shunned by my social circle-they aren't all crazy activists. I tend to disagree with my friends on a bunch of issues, but it's never been a problem. So I highly doubt that they'd "NEVER" forgive me! Ha!
But yeah, student loan debt is a serious issue. I'm with you on that one.
And, no... I don't live in Oklahoma... but I'm not sure if you think that constitutional provision is a positive or negative... not sure how you're trying to use this against me...
The myth of teacher salaries
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 5:52pm.
I live in PA and most districts near me start new teachers at about 35k. Top level, with a masters can make 85k. They contribute very little for their health care and pensions, and they are difficult to remove.
the myth?
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 6:02pm.
is that supposed to be an exorbitant amount of money? 35k isn't a ton-it's completely fine to live on, but it isn't a crazy amount of money. And 85k is not a very high "top level".
Are we arguing that teachers should be piss poor? If that's the argument, then I just disagree. But these numbers don't seem insane to me-maybe I'm pampered because I work in a field in which the "top level" is absurdly high, but none of this seems to irrational to me. It's certainly nothing to scoff at-but I feel like if you're in something just for the money, you'd probably hope for a job in which the "top level" is well above 6 figures...
Bos
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 7:13pm.
Do you know how much the average family makes? http://www.mybudget360.com/how-much-does-the-average-american-make-break...
So the teacher salary is well above the median. If you look at the training involved, the responsibilities involved (not life or death), and the working environment, teaching is a pretty lucrative profession. Don't forget you don't work holidays, have a decent Christmas and Easter break, and the summer off.
It still seems far from the
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 7:48pm.
It still seems far from the exorbitant salary that people claim. And I would really not describe it as lucrative. Besides, that's just in your state-if we're discussing the graph that Mr. Sheffield posted in the first place, the highest median salary in the education bracket is at 50k. Obviously it goes higher than that-but if this graph is to be trusted, most of the educational careers listed fall within and below the average family's income that you posted. So though teaching could earn you a bit more than average, it seems that most cases fall exactly into the average you provided. Now, if you're calling into question the validity of the graph, that's another thing.
Either way, I'm fine with it paying competitively-it's an extremely important profession that is quite demanding, even despite the holidays and summers off. I liked my teachers (most of em) and I hope they do well.
Bos
Submitted by Radical1979 on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 8:03pm.
Obviously 80K plus benefits is a far cry from "piss poor". The realistic way to look at it is to compare it to salaries in the geographic area with the salaries of teachers. From this perspective salaries are still above average in my area.
I know that teaching can be demanding, but aren't all professions? Look at nurses, they are in a demanding profession and work holidays and weekends.
My point was that teachers used to be underpaid, now they are well paid. No, teaching won't (and shouldn't) make someone rich. No one working for any branch of the government should get rich. But spare me the poor suffering teachers. In this recession, they are the only ones who have job security and have gotten raises.
Sorry
Submitted by BosTarus on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 8:18pm.
Once again, I fear I may have misrepresented myself. I'm not trying to complain about the poor suffering teachers-I'm simply responding to the denigrating comments about them being overpaid, lazy, and incapable.
I'm certainly not arguing that they need to be paid more-but I also don't think they are ridiculously overpaid and deserving of all the criticism that's heaped upon them. It's an important job, and I don't like them being demonized unfairly. That's all.
Awwww, yea...
Submitted by Kaleidoscopic God on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 2:27pm.
Engineering is at the top. :)
I wonder what "health sciences" they considered?
Submitted by drsamherman on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 6:46pm.
It is typical in most health sciences that you enter a profession and essentially hit your maximum salary up front unless you advance by having your own business/practice OR by moving up the ladder within a health care institution or outside business to management. Adjusting for inflation and decreased reimbursements, physician salaries haven't changed much in the past 25 years according to some studies I have read. You hit your peak early and it's essentially cost of living adjustments after that. The exception is for those who are in postgrad training, where the salary expectations are much lower until you reach the end of the required training and obtain full licensure/certification. Not all professions have those same postgrad requirements like medicine, so the salaries are attained day one.
➚ Holistic boil healing
Submitted by Cool Arrow on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 6:48pm.
And Vibro-Table Chiropraxy
Anyone listening to Levin?
Submitted by Boudin on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 7:01pm.
He is going over the suit against AZ, as he and his Landmark legal foundation is helping with it.
He did the same during the HC hearings. Fascinating
Reuters profiles George Zimmerman
Submitted by bkeyser on Wed, 04/25/2012 - 7:22pm.
Hmmmm.