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'Morning Joe' Panel Plays Class Warfare Card, Warns Wealthy To Listen to Envious, Frustrated Middle Class

By Matt Hadro | January 04, 2011 | 18:31

A  A

Tuesday's "Morning Joe" panel on MSNBC played the class warfare card, highlighting tension between the American middle class and the richest Americans who profit from the global economy. Impassioned co-hosts Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski gave credence to middle class frustration at the widening gap between them and the ultra-rich.

The Atlantic magazine's editor-in-chief James Bennett referenced a poll touting that 60 percent of Americans advocate higher taxes for the wealthy as the best solution to the budget crisis. "I think part of that is a response to the sense that they're being left behind by these people," Bennet explained.

Bennet pointed out top hedge fund managers making over a billion dollars a year, and suggested Americans would like to see more of that money back. "You'd think," huffed Mika Brzezinski. "Good luck getting it from them," Joe Scarborough warned. Scarborough was a critic of the recent tax deal between Obama and the GOP, arguing that millionaires did not need the tax cuts as much as the country needed their tax revenue to pay down the deficit.
 

The story by Reuters global editor-at-large Chrystia Freeland – subtitled "How the Global Elite is Leaving You Behind" – focused on the recent rise of the global elites and how their accumulation of wealth is multiplying. The panel focused on the tension between the middle class and this rising class of elites, who apparently don't listen to or care much about the middle class.

Columnist Mike Barnicle mentioned what he saw as "social rage, increasing social rage toward the rich." He warned that "this rage that's simmering in this country, it's evidenced in the polls...they don't listen to it, the rich don't listen." Mika Brzezinski also issued a warning. "Don't underestimate that tension," she glowered.

Increasing indifference of American millionaires and billionaires toward their own country was another subject of the story. Those successful in a global economy are "a little less concerned" with the American middle class and domestic issues, noted James Bennet. "Is that an understatement, 'a little less concerned'?" an impassioned Joe Scarborough scoffed.

A partial transcript of the segment, which aired on January 4 at 8:49 a.m. EDT, is as follows:

CHRYSTIA FREELAND: So my story was basically based on the observation – which you talk about a lot on your show – that we're seeing this two-speed U.S. economy and a two-speed world economy. And the people at the very, very top – not even the top one percent, the top 0.1 percent –

DONNY DEUTSCH: This is 0.0001 percent.

FREELAND: Right. They are doing incredibly well. And there are lots of arguments about why is it? Is it because of the technology revolution? Is it about financial de-regulation, is it about globalization? But the statistics are, they show, irrefutably, that you're seeing this group pull away. And what I wrote about in my piece is who are they, what are they like, and what is the impact of this community they're forming on everybody else.

(...)

JOE SCARBOROUGH: James Bennett, what's the impact of this on the rest of us?

JAMES BENNET: Well it's – the consequences are huge. Chrystia does, I think, a beautiful job in the piece of who these people are and what this kind of emerging culture is like. But she also really wrestles with what the effects of this are. And as these people hit kind of separation velocity, you're seeing that they can find middle-class workers and middle-class consumers anywhere in the world now. They're a little less concerned about the American middle class than they might have been in the past. And so they become a little less concerned with issues like domestic education –

SCARBOROUGH: Is that an understatement, "a little less concerned"?

BENNET: Chrystia, do you want to take it away?

FREELAND: Well, I think it's –

SCARBOROUGH: I mean let's be blunt.

FREELAND: I will be blunt. The thing is, I am pro-capitalist, and I understand why these guys want to make the most money possible and are looking for where the best opportunities are. But the real political consequence is, they are operating – they have, as James says, reached escape velocity. They are operating in this global economic space, and the reality is they aren't as concerned about finding jobs for the people who they live with.

SCARBOROUGH: Because they don't see boundaries, James. These are people who – and we know them – these are people who are probably up, if they are in New York, at 2 in the morning, and they're looking at Asian markets. And they're seeing how money moves across boundaries; there are no borders anymore for these people, there are only billions to be made.

BENNET: That's exactly right. And Joe, you were wondering earlier though, the flip side of this – you were wondering earlier how could 60 percent of Americans be advocating higher taxes on the wealthy as a way to deal with the budget crisis. I think part of that is a response to the sense that they're being left behind by these people. You know, they hear, as Chrystia writes in this piece, the top-25 hedge fund managers made more than a billion dollars each on average last year, and they kind of think maybe those people should be kicking a little more of that money back.

MIKA BRZEZINSKI: Huh, you'd think.

SCARBOROUGH: Good luck getting it from them.

BRZEZINSKI: You'd think.

MIKE BARNICLE: One of the elements of both these pieces – what Jim was talking about, what Chrystia was talking about – is a combustible element that is at large in our culture, I think and around the world, actually – social rage, increasing social rage toward the rich. Nobody, nobody gives birth to a child and says "Oh, I hope this baby grows up to be poor." Nobody wants to live in a one bedroom home by the side of an expressway with six kids packed in the house. And this rage that's simmering in this country, it's evidenced in the polls, and it's unheard – they don't listen to it, the rich don't listen.

BENNET: One of the really great points I think Chrystia makes here, and why this disconnect is so deep is that these people, a lot of these really successful people are merit-ocrats. I mean, they're first and second generation immigrants who made it on their own. And so they really feel like they kind of deserve what they made on the one hand. On the other hand, they sort of think "Well why didn't you make it, too?" You know, if I made it – so there's a little less of a sense of, maybe in the old days of noblesse oblige, or there's a kind of sense of legitimacy to their success that makes them feel aggrieved when other people start complaining about how much they make.

SCARBOROUGH: And again, this is so interesting Mika, because this is not, as Chrystia points out, this is not old money.

BRZEZINSKI: No. No no no.

SCARBOROUGH: And as Donny points out, this is the newest of new money, and a thing I found out – because I've never been around wealthy people until I ran for Congress the first time, and I found that when you went to somebody that did a paper route, and they were 8 or 9, and they saved that money, and then they built a small company, and then they became very wealthy – they had very little use for people with whining stories. Whereas you get old money – they want to write checks, and feel good about themselves.

BENNET: 'Cause there's guilt.

FREELAND: I totally agree with that, but Mike is right, that the problem is there is this huge tension, and if you have this two-speed economy, which we have, people who didn't make it into the billionaire class are saying "Wait a minute –"

BRZEZINSKI: Don't underestimate that tension.

About the Author

Matt Hadro is a News Analyst at the Media Research Center. Click here to follow Matt Hadro on Twitter.
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Comments

So, higher taxes on the

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 6:52pm.

So, higher taxes on the ultra-wealthy should be used to pay down the deficit. Okay, I can understand why some people might say that especially when the talking heads only mention "hedgefund managers" as though no one outside of a Wall Street office earns a good (or great) living. So sure, punish the hedgefund managers. Good luck writing that law.

But lets say that the economy remains flat over the next two years and lets say the media successfully spins that into "it's the GOP's fault" argument and BHO is re-elected. And lets say the tax rate for the highest (what did Donny say?) 0.0001% of US earners is increased to 75% and the revenue is used specifically to pay down the debt. ... How big of a dent would that put in the national debt? And how much of that would the middle class see?

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It would probably take more

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:01pm.

It would probably take more than that to significantly reduce the deficit.  But if it helped reduce the gap between rich and poor, would that not be good, in itself?

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Why would that be good?  

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:03pm.

Why would that be good?
 

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It would increase

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:18pm.

It would increase opportunities for poor people to advance themselves, care for their families, and have an equal say in the political process.  It also would help the economy by increasing demand for goods and services. 

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How does it advance someone with no ambition

Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:22pm.

When it's a one time payment? Or am I obligated to conttinue to support folk who are not family? And why would I bother earning anymore then I can before you confiscate it?

Libtards=morons

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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Correct.  If he has no

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:28pm.

Correct.  If he has no ambition, money won't help much.

Custard = pudding

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Well I dont know anyone

Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:28pm.

with ambition who needs my money, now remind me why I want to give it to those who dont have any?

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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You don't want to do that at

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:39pm.

You don't want to do that at all.

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Right

Submitted by Joe W. on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:27pm.

Spoken like a true liberal.

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~You're assuming

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:27pm.

that "reducing the gap" means that poor people are making more, rather than the rich being dragged down by punitive taxes while the poor remain poor. Which is what the government actually does when controlled by Dems.

Why are you implying that the poor don't have "equal say in the political process"?

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Poor don't have equal say

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:31pm.

It's expensive to run for office, or to contribute to a political campaign.

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No, it's not

Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:37pm.

Campaigns require all sorts of volunteers...on the phones, walking neighborhoods, distributing literature, etc.

Your post is just so much crap.

Some people can give money, others (w/no money) can give time.

Sorry.  FAIL.

Try again.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

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Right.  Poor people can

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:57pm.

Right.  Poor people can distribute campaign literature.  Rich people can pay for campaigns, and distribute campaign literature. 

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Could you be any dumber?

Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:31pm.

Wow.  So a poor person is disenfranchised because there's no way to have a voice, politically, eh?

EPIC FAIL.

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

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If you think that poor people

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:41pm.

If you think that poor people have as much clout as rich people, you have lived a very sheltered life, my friend.

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Ever heard of the Tea Party? 

Submitted by Radical1979 on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:48pm.

Ever heard of the Tea Party?  Lots of not rich people getting together showing their clout. 

Proud member of the 53%!
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Pow

Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:59pm.

Right in the kisser

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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~We all get one vote, yutz

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:59pm.

What kind of 'clout' are you talking about?

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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I'm guessing not ACORN-style clout

Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:04pm.

.

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Combo

Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:05pm.

Pow, pow, whack!

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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How interesting, yutsnark...

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:45pm.

"Rich people can pay for campaigns, and distribute campaign literature."

That's a very interesting conclusion, especially since Obama garnered most of his campaign dollars through, you know, individual PRIVATE donations, most of which were less than 100 dollars and, apparently came from the, shall we say, not-so-rich people, according to his own campaign finance reports anyways. Are you telling us that Obama LIED to the FEC about his donation sources?

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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CobraMan, you seem to be

Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 11:09am.

CobraMan, you seem to be making my point.

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~Yutz

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:41pm.

If you don't have the drive, ambition, intelligence, and leadership ability to raise the money to throw your hat into the political ring, you don't have what it takes to be an effective public servant.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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WB

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:20pm.

That's certainly true in this country, Wrathful B.  And I agree that drive, ambition, intelligence, and leadership ability are all good qualities to have. 

But the ability to raise millions of dollars -- is that really necessary to be an effective public servant?  I don't think so. 

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Ask Tim Green

Submitted by Blonde on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:34pm.

An unemployed dumbass made it to the real deal race....for a seat in the US Senate.

And your point would be?

Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)

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Several poor folks are in the Senate

Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:04pm.

Why else do you think they want all our money? Kidding, sorta

To hear Reid talk about himself, you would had thought he lived under a bridge,,,,, oh wait, I think he still does?

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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~It costs

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:43pm.

roughly $10,000 to throw your hat in the ring for Senator.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Really? Then explain Alvin Greene

Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:55pm.

You know, the penniless moron/pervert who garnered a mind boggling 28% of the vote in South Carolina.

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~28% of voters

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:59pm.

voted straight ticket Dem, I'm guessing.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Well, Bru, straight something

Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:03pm.

At least he didn't run on the Incest Party ticket.

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~Only because

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:45pm.

he couldn't figure out how to spell it.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Bru,

Submitted by Dave. on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:14pm.

I think we have yet another 14 yo pud-knocker on our hands.

-Dave

Vote for the American in November

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~Just as long

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:22pm.

as we've got a sufficient number of liberal talking points to utterly discredit for all the world and it's half-sister to see, the trolls can keep knockin' away. LOL

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Yes, they do.

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:10pm.

"Poor" people DO have a say, in their vote. Since, supposedly, there are many times more poor people than rich people, the votes those poor people will outnumber the votes of the rich people, correct?  Well, since we count the number of total number if individual votes cast and don't assign an individual voting value according to individual wealth, the poor actually has far more control over elections that the rich.

Here's how it works:  the poor outnumber the rich, therefor the poor OUTVOTE the rich each and every time!

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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So if we take money from the

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:36pm.

So if we take money from the ultra-rich and pay down the national debt, a poor man's vote will count ... what? 1.5 that of anyone else? And with the national debt lower, poor families will use what, exactly, to better care for their families?

Rhetorical, you don't have to answer those questions. Instead, lets look at the math.

Being that we're all about income redistribution, lets take $1billion each from those 25 top-earning hedgefund managers. And then lets dish it out equally to the 300 million or so Americans. Ready for your big payoff? Here it is: $83.33.

Oh, all 300 million don't need it? How about half of those? $166 big ones, comin' at ya!

Hey? Barack Obama feels likes spreading the wealth around is a good thing, right? He got $865 billion to play with. Why didn't he just spread it out among the 150 million or so that could have used it? $5766.67. Is the economy better?

See, what people like yoursef fail to realize is that even if we took 100% from those making $1M or more, we'd have a nation of people each with 25 grand in the bank and no one would be employed. Money is useless without something to spend it on.

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Hopw are rich people keeping them poor?

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:50pm.

"But if it helped reduce the gap between rich and poor, would that not be good, in itself?"

How are rich people preventing or obstructing others from achieving success?  How are rich people responsible for the poor? The truth is, they're no more responsible than you or I. So, rasing taxes on the "rich" isn't going to help poor people gain wealth. All it's going to do is make even more people poorer. How will THAT help the poor?

Thank's to the fact that we no longer base our money on the value of a finite supply of an item like gold, there is no upper limit to how much "wealth" can be available, to everyone. There's just as much "wealth" available to the poor people as there is to the richest man in America. The only difference between the "classes" is the abilities of the individual to acquire said wealth, through their production of goods or services, for themselves.

The supply of money, the supply of "wealth," is only as finite as the number of exchanges in goods and services it can provide (which is WHY we stopped using the "gold standard" as that "standard" is based upon a finite supply when we need an infinity supply for an expanding population, an expanding number of exchanges in goods and services). This means that no one, rich, middle class, or poor, can take away "wealth" from someone else. Only our government can do that, for, unlike the private sector that can produce both services and products (and that's what "labor" is, the production of a service), which contributes to the generation of wealth, it can not produce "wealth," only consume it.

You want to help poor people become richer?  Great!  The I suggest you tell government to STOP treating wealth as if there's a finite supply and to STOP trying to redistribute it according to some asinine "level the playing field" plan. That "field," as well as the "plan" it is based upon, doesn't exist. 

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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Hmm, looks like the mean net

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:53pm.

Hmm, looks like the mean net worth in America is 556,000 per family. 

http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/average-net-worth-of-an-american-f...

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What was it 100 years ago?

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:58pm.

So what's your point? 

There's is several times as many  families now than there was just 100 years ago and the "mean" income of all of those those families, poor families included," has increased substantially in those 100 years, so what is "problem" that only an increase in taxes for some, but not other, can solve? Left to itself, the economy will automatically improve the living standards for everyone, the poor included.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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Left to itself

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:09pm.

"Left to itself, the economy will automatically improve the living standards for everyone, the poor included."

On the contrary, for people on the lowest rung, real income has gone down, down, down.

http://www.econedlink.org/lessons/index.php?lid=154&type=educator

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Just to be clear, you've

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:18pm.

Just to be clear, you've linked an education-assistance website for teachers of middle school-aged children and a vague representation of a topic as sourced by the NYT?

Oh, another question. Assuming the poor are getting poorer, why do you think that is?

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Ahhhhh, bk

Submitted by CommanderTaya on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:24pm.

Beat me to it!  What a tool!  Perfect example of the indoctrination of our youth courtesy of the NYT.

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Youth???

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:42pm.

Youth???

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They were.......

Submitted by CommanderTaya on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:48pm.

lesson details with NYT links, etc.

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I believe the commentor was

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:49pm.

I believe the commentor was referring to the fact that the link was an educational source for K-12. That would qualify as youth, would it not? I don't believe he or she was referring to you, personally.

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Precisely!

Submitted by CommanderTaya on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:58pm.

Sorry for the confusion.  : ))

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Oops

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:31pm.

Sorry about the link, bkeyser.  Here's one that's more relevant: 

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

"Here are some dramatic facts that sum up how the wealth distribution became even more concentrated between 1983 and 2004, in good part due to the tax cuts for the wealthy and the defeat of labor unions: Of all the new financial wealth created by the American economy in that 21-year-period, fully 42% of it went to the top 1%. A whopping 94% went to the top 20%, which of course means that the bottom 80% received only 6% of all the new financial wealth generated in the United States during the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s (Wolff, 2007)."

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Okay, lets look a this one.

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:47pm.

Okay, lets look a this one. First of all, the quote clearly implies an ideological bias on the part of the "Sociology" professor as he blames income distribution which he sees as poorly allocated on the decrease in taxes on the wealthy and weakening of the Labor unions. Not exactly an admirer of Ronald Reagan, I presume. So with that in mind, lets move on to the Financial Wealth chart in Table 1.

Total financial wealth for the top 1% in 1983 was 42.9%. It reached it's peak of 47.3% in 1998 under Bill Clinton then took a big hit when the tech bubble burst and was down to 39.7% by 2001. The latest figure, in 2007 just over the crest of the housing bubble was 42.7%, significantly below that of the Clinton era that so many Dems deem the greatest of all economic times.

Conversely, the bottom 80% (bottom 80?) was at 8.7% in 1983, 9.1% in 1998, and only 7% in 2007.

According to this guy, the middle (19%) class directly benefited the most under George Bush.

Of course, you could skew these numbers to achieve any pre-determined data set just by redefining the three classes. If you decided that the lower class was the bottom 5%, the middle class was the next 35% and the rich were the top 60%, you'd get vastly different numbers. You should keep that in mind when siting an ideological source.

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Thats not true.

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:24pm.

What we define as "poor" today is several times higher in wealth, in relation to actual living standards to how we defined it just 100 years ago. 100 years ago, it was common, very common,  for poor people to die of starvation, exposure, and the like.  How many people do YOU know of that actually starve to death today? How many poor people don't have clothing, shelter, and the like? The answer is: very few.  The truth is, thanks to capitalism, the percentage of middle class families is INCREASING, just as it has for the last 100 years, mostly due to the REDUCTION of poor families.

Here's what you DON'T want to admit:  Thanks to capitalism, the living standards for everyone has been increasing for well over 100 years. That's the nature, and the benefit, of a capitalistic economy. It's only in centrally controlled economies where the standard of living decreases for the majority of its population.  Just look at Cuba for a perfect example. 

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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Yeah, when are libs going to

Submitted by Rowane on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 10:14pm.

Yeah, when are libs going to learn that American poor people live like kings when compared to people in other countries.

Money may make things easier, I've been on both sides of the devide, but i'd much rather keep my integrity and morals intact than to sell out for any amount.

That's another thing libtards need to learn, the government is BUYING them when it "gives" them freebies. If they don't believe it they can look at the democommies leading constituant groups, the ones with their hands held out for hand outs not the morons in media.

*******************************

You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. (Aaron Tippin)

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Well, the problem is that the

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:15pm.

Well, the problem is that the increase in the "mean" income is due almost entirely to gains made by the top 20 percent.  Poor people have been getting poorer.

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Tha is NOT true!

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:34pm.

That is NOT true!  The average, the mean income level for everyone is increasing, not decreasing.

Do you even know what "mean income level" means?  It's NOT the difference between the richest and the poorest.  It's the average of ALL the individual incomes combined. Since the middle income outnumbers bot the rich and the poor, guess where the mean income level resides?  That's right, in the average income of the middle class! That mean income is around 150,00 to 200,000 dollars.  NOT the half a million YOU claimed was the median income. Just 40 years ag, that mean income value was around one third of what it is today.  This means that the mean income level, you know, the average middle class income, as tripled in only 40 years! It has TRIPLED in less than a single lifetime.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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You're confusing "mean" with

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:39pm.

You're confusing "mean" with "median"

If my 3 buddies and I each make $10,000/year, and another guy makes $1,000,000 a year, the mean income is $208,000.  If the rich guy gets a raise to $2,000,000/yr, and the rest of us get a cut to $5000/year, then the mean income goes up to $404,000/year!  But four of us are actually poorer than before.

 

 

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No, it isn't

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:53pm.

No, it isn't.  In the instance you gave, the mean income is 10,000 dollars a year. What you're describing is the median income level.

If you and your friends get a cut that mean income decreases no matter how much more that "rich" guy makes. The opposite is also true, if you and your friends make MORE money, the mean income increases whether that rich guy makes less money or not.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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Cobraman

Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 11:15am.

To get the mean, you add all the data together, and divide by the number of items.  So, if the data are:  1, 3, 5, 7, 19, then the mean would be 35/5 = 7.  The median would be the middle number, which is 5.

 http://www.bvmarketdata.com/pdf/Median-Mean.pdf

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"Average" or "statistical

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:58pm.

"Average" or "statistical mean" is a poor measure for such a small sample.

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He's confusing mean income and median income.

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:03pm.

He's confusing "mean" income and "median" income. 

I think he's forgetting that "mean income'" is the term describe for the median income of a certain income level or classification.  There's a "mean " income level for each classification, upper, lower, and middle. That means there's a separate "mean" income level just for the "rich," as well as the "middle income" and "poor."

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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Exactly CobraMan

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:08pm.

In his first example: (4) @ $10K and (1) @ $1M, the median income would be $10k.

In the second example: (4) @ $5K and (1) @ $2M, the median income would be $5k.

That's why median is the preferred method of evaluating income per capita; there are outliers, specifically the ultra-rich (.1%).

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I remember

Submitted by Boudin on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:15pm.

Mark Levin giving an example of a family 4? making 14k and using all the Government assistance including Mortgage, car, health, food, ect. Had more disposable income then another family that made 62k. The lower income folks have no incentive to be motivated. But yet the morons want to find them even more "assistance".

Libtards=dimwits

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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It's irrelevant anyways.

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:32pm.

"Mean or "median" income is irrelevant anyways, especially when you consider that the average standard of living, the true measure of the success of any economy, naturally increase for capitalist system, just as it's designed to do.

When the "poor" today can buy more items, and eat more food per week, than my "middle income" family could afford just 45 years ago, it's obvious that the average standard of living has increased. Even by today's standards, the "poor" outspend and out earn the "middle class' of just the last generation. That is what is important, not how much money the "super rich" are making.

Here's what so many people don't want to admit:  Yes, Bill Gates is making more and more money, but that hasn't decreased the money supply, the wealth available,in America at all.  There's PLENTY of wealth left over for each and every one of us, but only if we WORK at acquiring it. There is no need to "redistribute" an infinite supply of anything. And, thanks to capitalism, there is an infinite supply of wealth available in America, for those who are willing to work at acquiring it anyways.

I went from earning minimum wages to earning over 75 thousand dollars a year, but not because the federal government gave me more someone else's money.  I WORKED for that increase, and I earned every penny of it! Did my pay increases reduce the wealth  supply in America?  No, it actually INCREASED it!

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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That was an interesting article.

Submitted by Denny Crane on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:48am.

How much disposable income does a single mother of 2 working minimum wage have compared to a family making 60 thousand?

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/entitlement-america-head-household-making-minimum-wage-has-more-disposable-income-family-mak

Be on the lookout for random acts of journalism from the MSM~h/t Rush

We Are The 53%

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He's confused, period.

Submitted by ckc1227 on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 11:38pm.

It's not just mean and median.


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average or statistical

Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 2:21pm.

Well you're right of course.  But first of all, let me remind you that the small sample is just an example I used, to explain the meaning of "mean."  We're actually dealing with the entire population of the U.S.

And I understand that, in a case like this, the median gives a far better picture of central tendency. 

I used the mean in this case, because it shows where we'd be if we literally "spread the wealth."  (Not that I'm advocating such a policy  -- but it does dramatize the extent of the gap between rich and poor.)

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yutsnark

Submitted by hydrodynDM on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 2:46pm.

You need to clarify what you mean by "central tendency" in order to back up your assertion.

Also, your statement that the mean is unchanged if you even out the distribution of points ("spread the wealth") is incorrect. The mean of a sample depends on how the data points in the sample are distributed. If you change the distribution, the mean will likely change.

As an example, consider ten data points - one at the value of 1 and nine at the value of 10. The mean of this is 9.1. Now spread out the ten data points so one is at 1, one is at 2, one is at 3 and so on to 10. The mean of that distribution is 5.5.

All that aside, this talk about mean and median is pretty much pointless without some idea of how the data is distributed. Completely different distributions can give identical means and medians.

And I'm not even going to get into the whole sample population versus true population thing.

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yutsnark

Submitted by hydrodynDM on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 4:40am.

Given that you have had time to respond to others since my post, I'll assume your silence on this matter means either that you are too dumb to respond or too arrogant to acknowledge you were wrong.

Let me know which.

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False dichotomy

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 1:25pm.

No, if I were that dumb, I wouldn't have responded to the other posts.  And I've often acknowledged I was wrong.  I just missed your comment first time around.  Nothing personal.

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hydrodyn

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 1:14pm.

I didn't say that the mean is unchanged if you spread out the distribution points. 

But if I tell you that the mean wealth of American families is $500,000, that tells you that if the money were re-distributed, with each family given an equal share, then each family would be worth $500,000. 

Simple example:

Family 1 is worth $0

Family 2 is worth $0

Family 3 is worth $0

Family 4 is worth $0

Family 5 is worth $2,500,000

 

Mean wealth is $500,000

If all the wealth were shared equally, each family would have $500,000.

 

That's all I was trying to say.  Didn't mean to get bogged down.

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yutsnark

Submitted by hydrodynDM on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 11:58pm.

OK - I get how you are using the term "mean wealth" - total wealth divided by number of families.

To me, "mean" means average and the arithmetic average in your example is $2500000.

By the way - sorry about the jerky post above. I've just gotten really tired of people starting discussions and then simply abandoning them.

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hydrodyn

Submitted by yutsnark on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 8:44pm.

No problem.  I try not to abandon discussions.  But I have a slow computer, and it's hard to catch everything.  Feel free to send me a message if I miss something you've said, and you'd like a response.

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LOL

Submitted by bkeyser on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:58pm.

LOL

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yut...Why don't you go give

Submitted by the struggler on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:12pm.

yut...Why don't you go give half your money to the guy at the bottom of the free-way ramp.Would that not be good,in itself.You know,even the gap.

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The guy at the bottom of the

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:19pm.

The guy at the bottom of the freeway ramp is driving a Lexus.  He doesn't need my money.

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 Now you're just making

Submitted by the struggler on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:53pm.

 Now you're just making things up.

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Or maybe yutsnark---

Submitted by matthewdean on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:02am.

is politely indicating that someone else should not be making any suggestions as to what yutz should do with his money---

Maybe that makes yutzie uncomfortable.

It is yutzie's money, is it not?

Kinda like when I get uncomfortable with the government taking my money in order to give it to lazy welfare weenies and queens who have never worked a day in their life.

MD 

"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Mathewdean

Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 11:23am.

I don't know what the solution is.  But it always surprises me that people don't see it as a real problem. 

Each year, we hear that the gap between rich and poor is increasing, and that more of our wealth is in the hands of fewer people.  How can this be, in a system where talent and hard work are rewarded?  Are the upper one percent working harder each year than in the previous year?  If I'm earning 100 times more than the guy who cleans the toilets, is that because I'm a hundred times smarter?  Or because I'm working 100 times harder?  Did he and I really start out with an equal shot at the American dream?

 

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~Yutz

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 11:53am.

How much of the total tax revenue do these rich people pay, percentage-wise?
 

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Wrathful percentages

Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 7:57pm.

Well, just off the top of my head, I'd guess that the wealthiest 1 percent of the population earn 19 per­cent of the income but pay 37 percent of the income tax. The top 10 percent pay 68 percent of the tab.

Am I close?

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~Does the disparity

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 9:03pm.

not raise your ire? Or is your outrageous outrage at unfairness a front to make you feel good about yourself?

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Well, Wrathful Brunette

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 1:38pm.

At the risk of repeating myself -

I'm aware that rich people pay lots of taxes. 

But I make ten times the salary of the guy who cleans the toilets.  And the fellow in the corner office makes ten times what I make.  I'm not ten times smarter than the toilet cleaner, and the boss is not ten times smarter than I.  And we all work just as hard. 

Okay, I can live with that degree of unfairness.  After all, the boss was in the right place at the right time, and maybe he made some better choices than I did, along the way.  And the toilet cleaner -- well, maybe he could have gone to college, if he'd worked hard enough to earn a scholarship.

But then, what if there are people who earn 100 times what the toilet cleaner earns?  And the following year, they're pulling in 500 times what he earns?  And the next year, 1000 times?  Are they really working that much harder every year?  Are they getting that much smarter?  And what about people who are born into wealthy families, and can be billionaires without lifting a finger?

I think there's an element of unfairness built into the system.  And the increased gap between rich and poor exacerbates and dramatizes this unfairness.

Does that answer your question?  If not, I can give it another try.

 

 

 

 

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~The guy cleaning a toilet

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 1:54pm.

is performig a basic maintenance function, as opposed to someone who is producing something necessary to society.

Let me put it this way. There's the guy who just mucks out a horse stall every day, and there's a guy who uses the horse to plow a field and produce a ton of food. Which function is more valuable to society? Which one used initiative and hard work to provide a product that people need?

If you're content to be the guy doing nothing but cleaning toilets, then you're a victim of your own lack of drive, not the other guy's abundance of it.

Bottom line, life isn't a zero sum game. The guy with the corner office didn't keep the janitor down, he provided him with a job by having that office.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Guy cleaning toilet

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:46pm.

I don't believe that "value to society" is the key factor in determining salary, do you?  Again, if the toilet doesn't get cleaned, everybody in the hospital can get sick.  If the dishes don't get washed, everybody in the restaurant can get sick.  Movie actors, pro football players, owners of bawdy houses and pornography stores, credit-default swappers -- in what way is their work the most valuable, and who decides?

 

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~Value to society

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 6:23pm.

With my use of that term, I'm talking about producing/providing things that people really need, like food or medical care, or things that people really want, like business loans and home ownership.

A trained monkey can clean a toilet, but it takes a special skill set to be a doctor, police officer, lawyer, banker, architect, soldier, actor, professional athlete, etc.. Not everyone has the mental/emotional/physical ability..or desire to do these things. According to my aptitude tests I should have been a doctor, but I what I loved was growing plants and designing gardens. I became a landscape designer. (too bad the hort industry tanked lately, lol) The job/career decisions people make aren't as cut and dried as you make it out to be. The guy cleaning toilets for a living isn't doing it merely because he didn't have the money/opportunity to become a research scientist.

When you come right down to it, things are only worth what people are willing to pay for them. And money itself has no value other than as a means of exchange.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Wrathful horticulturist

Submitted by yutsnark on Sun, 01/09/2011 - 11:40pm.

Yeah, I agree that things are worth what people are willing to pay for them.  And that's true for jobs as well. 

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~Don't make me

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sun, 01/09/2011 - 11:44pm.

break out the systemic fungicide on ya.
 

:-p

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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There are more

Submitted by Boudin on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 1:59pm.

Self made millionaires then there are folks born into it. They come from every walk of life, and they are rarely "lucky". Fact is, fair dont enter into it.

If you suddenly tell Bill Gates he cant make another dime, he has reached his cap, as have thousands of others. What will be the end result? It will simply be another way for the Fed (of course reluctantly/sarc) to take control of every entity of our daily being.

Free enterprise rarely benefits those who refuse to participate, and is easily thrown off balance by restrictive rules. Our health care is a perfect example, the more they meddle the higher the cost, and the less effective it is.

It is one thing to look out for the less fortunate, it is quite another to establish a class of less unfortunate folks to sway elections to centralize power.

Seek Truth, Defend Liberty
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Yutsnark, Are you

Submitted by Liberallies on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 2:00pm.

Yutsnark,

Are you serious?

Are you then saying that a medical doctor should get paid the same amount as the toilet cleaner?

You are paid what you are worth. The toilet cleaner is a lot less valuevable than the manager of a department, than the head of two departments is more important than the manager of one department, the CEO of a company is a lot more important to a company than the manager of two departments.

I do agree that the Golden Parachutes are a bit extreme,  however, I do not believe that because you are rich or have more money you should pay more for anything. It doesn't matter if you earned it, worked for it, inherited.

Unless you stole the money to become rich, there is ZERO unfairness on the toilet guy getting paid a lot less than a CEO.

Additionally, the Liberal policies is what keeps on creating a larger and lager gap between the rich and the poor, NOT the Free Market forces. This is something that I know it is impossible for the Liberal cultists to admit.

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liberallies

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 2:22pm.

You know, in Kittson County, Minnesota, there is a little community hospital that remained open for years without a single staff doctor or attending physician.  Just two nurses, a receptionist -- and the guy who cleans the toilet. 

The hospital where I worked is larger.  But we got by without a CEO for 18 months.  (Couldn't get by for a single day without the janitorial staff.)  At great expense, the Board of Directors hired a company to interview applicants for the CEO job.  After months of interviews, they narrowed the field down to 8 highly qualified candidates.  By the laws of supply and demand, the CEO should be earning very little, right?

But seriously, I'm interested in hearing your opinion about what policies are increasing the gap between rich and poor. 

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Yutsnark, This type of

Submitted by Liberallies on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:29pm.

Yutsnark,

This type of policy

 

Illinois' State government has been under the choke of Liberal Democrats for decades. They have created all type of welfare programs. Now, they can't afforded it anymore!!!

and who pays for it through taxes? WE DO!!!! the middle class.

The rich? Well they pay too, but they hire tax lawyers that can find every single loophole possible. The poor, well the poor do not pay income taxes! Who pays? We the middle class. the money that I will have to pay extra on Illinois' income tax will not go to buy food, clothest, pay bills, etc! it will not go back to the economy. Instead, it has to pay the horrendous debt created by Liberals in the State government.

This Liberal policies of creating welfare programs and then paying for them with my hard earned money creates more poverty! I am literally being tax down to the poor class here in Illinios.

As it has been pointed to you, a family of 4 making 14K on welfare, on food stamps, on all types of government aid has more dispossable income than a family of 4 earning in th3 e 60k! Why would I work hard to make 60K when I can  have more by working and doing less? Once again Liberal policies creating a larger poor class.

by the way, with the janitors being undispensible. We had a strike once where I used to work many years ago. The cleaning people stopped coming for months! What did we do, us middle class....we roled up our sleeves, created a clean up schedule, including the President of the company, and we ALL pitched in to clean. In fact, we did such a good job that when the cleaners stopped their strike, the company realized that they would save money by not having the cleaners and having everyone else pitch in with the cleaning that the janitors were all fired!!! HAHAHAHA!!! No, the janitors do not deserved to get paid the same as an office personnel, as a manager, as the manager of two departments, as the CEO.

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Yeah, I read your article, liberallies

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:16pm.

That's an extraordinarily large tax increase.  And most of it is due to welfare?

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Yutsnark, Tell me. How

Submitted by Liberallies on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:43pm.

Yutsnark,

Tell me.

How many jobs can a person who earns 20K a year create versus a person who earns 250K or over?

How many jobs can a poor person create versus a rich person?

I have friends who make well over 1 million dollars a year. What do they do with it? They invest it and have their own companies. One friend of mine comes to mind.

He owns a company that trades stocks, whether the market is good or bad, he is making money. In fact, when the market is doing poorly he makes more money because people tend to trade more. Anyway, he opened his business in California. He started with 20 workers back in 2001. His company grew to eventually 200 individuals. Now, given that California's economic environment, he had to cut positions. Today, he is down to 10 workers. The other 190 he had to let go. Only 15 of them have found jobs, at not even making close to waht they were making before. The rest are unemployed POOR!!

who created the situation in California for this? RINOs and Liberals!!!!! this story is being repeated all over California, Illionis and most Liberal controlled states in our union. Not that it is not happening in Conservative controlled States, but its happening at a faster rate in States like California. Why? due to Liberal policies which created a larger poor class and much smaller middle and rich class.

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Liberallies...

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:19pm.

I doubt that a person earning 20k a year can create even one job.

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Wrathful Brunette, Liberal

Submitted by Liberallies on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 2:07pm.

Wrathful Brunette,

Liberal cultist are only outraged at "unfairness" when the rich aren't being made poor. Otherwise, they could care less about unfairness.

I have yet to fine a Liberal cultist who can tell me how many jobs a toilet cleaner can create versus the CEO of a company.

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~I had triplets

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:46pm.

Pass out some cigars, wouldja LL?

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Mazel Tov

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:46pm.

Mazel Tov

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~Strangest hiccup I've ever seen

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:44pm.

My first NB triple post! I'm so proud!

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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~Or

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:44pm.

how many lives a janitor can save as opposed to a doctor.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Good evening Jolie Brun

Submitted by cocodrie on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:56pm.

It ain't a record but it's pretty good. Quit chewing that triplemint gum.

 

Jesus Loves You so much He died for you

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~Like I said

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 4:05pm.

to the little old lady at church who advised us to get rid of all the baby toys so we wouldn't have another baby...."Somehow I don't think that's what causes it".

LOL

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Damn

Submitted by Denny Crane on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 4:46am.

Now I know why my wife wouldn't let me throw all those old toys out!

Be on the lookout for random acts of journalism from the MSM~h/t Rush

We Are The 53%

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~We're

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sun, 01/09/2011 - 11:46pm.

sneaky like that. It's the hormones, we can't help it. Estrogen is some wicked s#!t, I tell ya.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Well, yutsnark---

Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 12:29am.

I can tell you what isn't a solution. That would be GIVING money, goods, or services, to someone too damn lazy to work for the money necessary to provide those things for themselves. I heard about a thought that said if all the money in the world were divided up equally between every man, woman, and child on the planet, within just a very few generations, the people with the big bucks the first time around would have accumulated same once again. There are haves, and have nots. Always were; always will be. Whether that is good, or bad, it is an undeniable part of life. MD
"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Thanks Mathewdean

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:28pm.

.. though I already know lots of things that aren't the solution.  I gather you're saying there is no solution -- we just have to live with the inequality.  As you said, "always were, always will be."  But why is the gap getting bigger?

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yutsnark---

Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 10:16pm.

"But why is the gap getting bigger?", you ask. Probably because the people who choose to live on handouts that come as a result of the sweat from a working person's brow, are satisfied with living that way, forever. The middle class "haves" work and strive for a better existence. The rich enjoy their riches, whether inherited or earned. The leeches may eat, breathe, and breed, but are stagnant, financially speaking, which is a choice they make through their own laziness, while the achievers continue to try to improve themselves and their lifestyle. As a conservative, I believe any onus referencing ANY "gap" size is on the do nothings as opposed to the workers in this country. MD
"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Mathew*

Submitted by cajun2 on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 10:45pm.

You will have difficulty explaining to people who tend to live in a constant state of "denial" because the truth contradicts their ideology.

This information posted by Denny Crane and other links similar have been at NB numerous times. When the "dole" is better than actually working, who is surprised by the increase in people on the "dole".

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/entitlement-america-head-household-making-minimum-wage-has-more-disposable-income-family-mak

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cajun---

Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 10:56pm.

As much as I don't like to admit it, if I could make, being on the dole, close to what I could make while gainfully employed, I would choose the former.

While it is more than unfair not to accept that actuality as far as current welfare denizens, I tend to do just that.   :o)

MD

 

"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Matthew

Submitted by Cool Arrow on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 11:03pm.

I could do just that with an early retirement as of last year.
Afraid I'd bore myself to tears.

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Amazing what free money does.

Submitted by Denny Crane on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 4:52am.

Although I am proud to say, when I did qualify for government aid, I didn't even bother trying to get it.

My parents taught me better than that.

As long as I could pay my rent and utilities, and had enough food to live on, I wouldn't ask anyone for anything.  It was hard for a long time, but no way was I going to go on "welfare"

Be on the lookout for random acts of journalism from the MSM~h/t Rush

We Are The 53%

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Matthewdean

Submitted by yutsnark on Sun, 01/09/2011 - 11:51pm.

I agree that non-working poor people are at least part of the problem.  I've known neighborhoods where most people were on welfare, and I've been amazed at the lack of initiative there.  And I've seen how the dependent attitude gets passed down through the generations.  Still, it's hard for me to just say, "they've made their bed -- they can lie in it."  Because the kids are victims -- having bad role models, the wrong incentives, and rarely leaving the neighborhood.  We've had welfare reform, and I thought that was supposed to have helped significantly.  Have I been misnformed?  And if so, what more can we do?  If we stopped welfare payments entirely, who would take care of the kids?

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~Are you suggesting

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sun, 01/09/2011 - 11:57pm.

that you think people will stop feeding/caring for their kids if they don't get a check from the government any more?

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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WB

Submitted by yutsnark on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:20am.

Frankly, I'm not sure whether they would.

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→ Yutsnark

Submitted by Cool Arrow on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:23am.

Not uncommon among welfare drug addicts.
Of course I'm waiting to see kids go hungry because Mama's playing FARMVILLE.

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Yuts you have got to stop this*

Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:31am.

Your posts have been simplifying extremely complex issues. Anytime you talk about bureaucracy, you must look beyond "the victims". The democrats have for 50 yrs used the welfare dependency card to grow power and inflluence amongst the "poor" to enlarge their base.

When you look back at programs such as Section 8 housing, Public Housing, Welfare, Food Stamps, Medicaid, SSI, grants and monies funneled to non profits like ACORN, and Planned Parenthood, you will see the intent of the policy and the money. It is about POWER, it is about MONEY, it is about INFLUENCE and money laundering. Planned Parenthood has received money since Roe vs Wade to the tune of about $1m per abortion. All of these clinics are located in "poor" neighborhoods resulting in a 25% drop in black population. Sounds like Eugenics to me.

Section 8 housing is a scam for billions of dollars to be funneled to "slum lords". Research Valarie Jarrett, and  ACORN's original founders. After billions of dollars spent on these "benevolent programs, the poor have made little or no progress. The reason is because govt dependency reproduces the voter base for the democrats. Govt dependency justifies continued growth of the size of govt. The continued growth of govt means more and more money gets to be funneled to "special interest groups". It does nothing for the "poor".

The real issues facing the black community today, as it did 50 yrs ago, has not changed because the liberal elites do not want to confront the realities of causes of poverty in this country. That would eleminate their base and the money laundering.

Check out two websites...The Fredrick Douglass Foundation and The New American. Read articles written by Thomas Sowell, Starr Parker, Larry Elder, Walter E Williams, Bob Parks, Doneen Borelli. These are black conservatives who are telling the reality of the failure of the democratic agenda involving the poor blacks in this country.

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Some more on the victims.

Submitted by Denny Crane on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 8:08am.

I was horrified by these statistics.

Teenage abortion rates for the latest year available.  2006

27.3%

Abortion rate for women 20 to 24 years old. 23.3%

Black teenage women.  35.8% nationally.

Black teenage women in New York state.  58.3%  That's 3 out of 5 pregnancies ending in abortion.

source

Be on the lookout for random acts of journalism from the MSM~h/t Rush

We Are The 53%

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yutsnark---

Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:50am.

Don't ask what more "we" can do. The last few years before I retired I was paying forty thousand dollars a year in state and federal taxes. Now that I am retired, I still pay close to ten thousand dollars a year to the feds alone. I've done my part as far as working all my life and providing a target with my income for politicians to take away from me and give to worthless welfare turds. Screw the politicians, and to hell with those who WILL NOT look out for themselves. Worthless nimrods, ALL of them. MD
"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Not to worry, Matthewdean

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 4:30pm.

I'm not suggesting that your taxes be increased.  And if I did, who would listen?

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gaps

Submitted by Agnostic on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 10:34pm.

The gap in capitalism is a point of envy not an economic problem.  In fact a gap is necessary to produce certain markets which produce jobs and generate wealth for lower and middle classes.  The gap in a socialistic society is a problem because it means the ruling class is keeping it for themselves - in socialism this is the government.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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agnostic

Submitted by yutsnark on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:21am.

Assuming you're right -- does the size of the gap matter at all?

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wealth gap

Submitted by Agnostic on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:37am.

Only when resources limit the use of the wealth, wealth is horded or when the economy will not allow creation of further markets due to either regulation or stagnation (either could be perfectly legitimate but it would have an effect).  When wealth is being generated there there is no difference in the amount of money you make from day to day regardless of how much more others are making.  If anything the wealth of others may drive prices down by creating competition and/or greater supply. 

When the economy is constricted due to restricting the growth of the wealth creators or when unsure/negative market speculations create an atmosphere that causes wealth to be horded then the economy retracts until inflationary problems start to occur.  At this point it is really a matter of getting the money into the market in a productive manner.  It must be productive and this is why you can't just tax the money because while there can be a stimulating effect from government spending it is shorter lived and doesn't provide the confidence needed for true wealth creation.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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wealth gap

Submitted by yutsnark on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 9:39am.

Thanks Agnostic.  That's interesting.  But there are limitations in resources, are there not?  I'm thinking particularly of land (they're not making any more) and energy.  When resources are finite, doesn't that move the model toward a "zero-sum game"?

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~Energy?

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 11:05am.

Between as-yet untapped oil reserves, developing oil fields, and nuclear energy, we've got a few thousand more years of energy. Think we might make more advances in efficient energy technology between now and then?
 

As far as land goes, there's still plenty. Oregon is about the size of the UK and has a tenth of their population.

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Oregon

Submitted by yutsnark on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 1:20pm.

How much of Oregon is for sale?

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yutsnark, zero-sum

Submitted by Agnostic on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 6:22pm.

Not really.  The point about the amount of land available is applicable but not to a great degree.  The main component that has to be remember is the dynamics.  Technology and wants do not stay the same and therefore allocation of resources is always in a flux.  There is also a corralation between the advancement of technology and the generation of wealth but it can be argued in much the same way as the chicken and the egg.  What can not be argued is that technology growth spurs more technology growth so than an economic system seeking expansion will seek out not only the resources but the technology to effeciently allocate those resources.

Bottom line is that zero-sum thinking involves the assumption that wealth, technology and various economic factors do not change in any dramatic fasion.  This is simply not true though like many things it is hard to see from within ones own lifetime. 

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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Not just land is important*

Submitted by cajun2 on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 6:45pm.

Take a look at this map.

http://davegj13.wordpress.com/2010/03/05/obama-plans-10-million-acre-land-grab/

Obama has begun "federalizing" land in 37 states. Most of those states have natural energy resources. He has halted all permits being issued on the East Coast for 7 yrs. Though he has lifted the moratorium in the gulf no new permits have been issued. Only 2 active rigs have been allowed to resume drilling.

Russia has been given a contract to mine uranium in Nevada. China has been given a permit to build a wind farm in Texas using Chinese built turbines, Chinese engineers and work crews. The EPA has issued even more stringent regulations for all our gasoline refineries making it difficult for them to work full time. The refineries have also been told to increase the percentage of ethanol in the gasoline. This will increase the amount of corn needed for processing instead of for food. It will also increase the amount of fresh water needed to produce the ethanol. The ethanol additive is not as efficient as regular gasoline requiring greater production.

Add all of these actions together, connect the dots, it has nothing to do with the land or preservation of the land. It has to do with control over the states regulatory powers, control over the production of energy supplies, control over the energy industry, and therefore control over a significant part of our economy. All of which will increase costs of energy "which will necessarily skyrocket" as he promised.

All of this is intended to create a greater dependency on government to energy producers, to states economies, to individual citizens. Please review my previous posts on the issue of Obama's administration and previous liberals  to continue the need for growth of government, destroy private industry, in order to grow individual dependency on the government. It is all connected and has been in place and on going for 2 yrs behind the current. Information that the MSM does not want anyone to know because it is being done in incremental steps. We will face a serious energy crisis and major economic failure, not with a  bang but with a whimper.

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Cajun 2

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 4:52pm.

Cajun2, thanks for the link and the comments.  In my humble opinion, environmental policies need to be judged on a case by case basis -- some are helpful, some misguided.  Some may be good but ill-timed (e.g., reducing work opportunities during a recession).  It would be nice if such choices could be made by a committee of ecologists and economists who have no political agenda.  Fat chance of that.

Thus far, I've seen no persuasive evidence that all of this is a plot to make people more dependent on the federal government.  Maybe I'm just not connecting the right dots.

 

 

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land

Submitted by Agnostic on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 10:51am.

Actually they are - sort of.  Islands are made naturally and artificially all the time - look at Dubai for recent developements there.  But more importantly technology has and will most likely in the future make more land available for use.  Remember the breadbasket of America was part of the dust bowl until the proper techniques were learned.  Refrigeration and shipping advancements have opened up crops around the world. 

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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Making things up

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 1:15pm.

It was a collaboration.  You built the imaginary freeway ramp, and the dude standing around at the bottom.  I gave him a car to drive.  I hope he's thankful.

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That's not fair

Submitted by ckc1227 on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 11:42pm.

Government should take that car from him and give it to a poor person. Who does he think he is earning enough money to buy an expensive car like that?


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reducing the gap

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:00am.

Reducing the gap between rich and poor does more harm than good.  It may make some feel better about themselves but on whole such action causes markets (micro) to be destroyed, moves more of the middle class to the lower class, prevents the growth of the economy (growth that would allow greater opportunity and greater movement between the classes) and reduces economic effeciency.

Each of these things hurts the middle and lower classes much more than the wealthy. 

Please, anyone, teach our children economics.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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Too much money is being spent

Submitted by mostlymoderate on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 7:38pm.

Too much money is being spent on career welfare queens.  Too many medical benefits being given to illegal alien anchor babies.  Too many government workers with too many perks.  If our country keeps raising taxes on the hard-workers that make a lot of money, I wouldn't blame those people if they found creative ways to shelter their money.  

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It's not too often that old school Commies open up like this

Submitted by SickofLibs on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:00pm.

Thanks, Yut. This has all the makings of a Frontline documentary.

The PBS series, not the flea medication.

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thanks, sickoflibs

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:56pm.

I've grown tired of all those flea powder gigs.  So have the rest of us old school Commies.

 

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When America has a real

Submitted by Barack_must_go..... on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:49pm.

When America has a real president, as opposed to a black radical community organizer, the middle class is prosperous and plenty wealthy, healthy and happy in their own right.

Now we have a guy who is attempting thru deliberate chaos, which leads to class warfare, fundamentally change our harmonious ( for the most part ) way of life in America into something grotesque and evil.

We  lived in harmony across the spectrum of different classes, races and religions until Obama came to power.

Him being elected the first black president of the United States of America proves my point.

Our only problem is  him and his radical agenda, laid out for all to see before he was elected, but his boyish charm and winning smile hypnotized the electorate.

Now  we know exactly, well the best we can with a con man, who and what he is.

He is the only thing that stands in the way of this country surviving or becoming a bankrupt, broken, hatefull society.

We must rid ourselves of him and the harmfull deeds he's already done, if we have any chance of returning to the way of life this country has enjoyed for the past 230 years or so.

Barack was raised by and associated only with radicals and communists ( including his own mother, father and maternal grand parents ) right up until moving here and George Soros deciding Barack was to be his next puppet.

When Barack goes, so does the dark clouds that shroud our country in hopelessness and uncertainty for the future.

Until then we can only attempt to hold on and pray that day comes sooner than later.

Barack_Must_Go.....

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Shangri-La

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:11pm.

"We have been able to live in harmony across the spectrum of different classes, races and religions until Obama came to power."


 

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oops.....thanks.....

Submitted by Barack_must_go..... on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:49pm.

oops.....thanks.....

Barack_Must_Go.....

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You know what is funny about all this....?

Submitted by NeoKong on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:27pm.

Is that they probably pay Scarborough 5 million a year and Mika has got to be making at least a million and they have the nerve to act as if the rich are this group of people they will never know.       It's like being called fat by Rosie O'Donnell.

Follow me on Twitter
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How does one go about getting

Submitted by Rowane on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 10:22pm.

How does one go about getting Mountain Dew out of a keyboard?

*******************************

You've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. (Aaron Tippin)

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Do we know what's funny about all this....?

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:14am.

I do.  What's funny is that Scarborough is not anti-rich at all.  Check out this clip [third from the top entitled "debating debt ceiling, tax cuts"] from the show Tues. morning.  You'll need to invest about 15 minutes of your time, but it will help you understand his tax and spending positions which are profoundly and regrettably distorted at this website.

Jer

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This plays on two popular notions born of ignorance:

Submitted by lsudolemite on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:30pm.

  1. Wealth production and acquisition is a zero-sum game.  The pie always stays the same size.  If someone has a large piece, someone else must have a small piece.
  2. And the logical corollary, that the rich somehow owe something to the "middle class" by virtue of nothing more than simply being rich, and the poor/middle class are therefore entitled to pillage their "stash."

It's no wonder people believe this, and liberals believe it down to their core.  We don't even educate people on basic life skills anymore, much less a fundamental knowledge of economics.

"Liberalism is hideous.  It is the antithesis of being pro-human.  It looks at life as a burden in and of itself to be managed, rather than as a blessing to be explored and lived to the fullest." --Rush Limbaugh
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They're regressing

Submitted by CobraMan on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 8:42pm.

You have to remember that "progressives" are actually REGRESSIVE in nature.  A perfect example is the discussion of our economy. They always regress to how the economy was structured in the past when we had the gold standard, when there WAS a finite size to that "pie." They can never seem to progress to today's system, even though the true progressives of  days past actually helped to create today's system. Because "progressives" are actually regressive in their logic, they can't understand how it works.

Today that "pie" is infinite in size, but the understanding of the liberal's these days is as finite as the old, unused "gold standard" monetary system, and as regressive. They are also as useless as that old monetary system, and as harmful when their "progressive" policies are applied to our society today.

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution

Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court

Or Anwar al-Awlaki.

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I'm middle class, love the rich and hate spending politicians

Submitted by neutron on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 9:27pm.

Morning Joe is off track. I'm middle class. I love the rich peple who started the company where I work. They gave me a good paying job and keep finding work for me to do that keeps me employed and them making money. Good for them!

I hate the thieving politicians who take money from me at every turn, and don't give me much in return. Besides federal, state, county and city income taxes and FICA, and property tax, we pay sales taxes and hidden taxes on things like gas and excise taxes on tires and wiper blades, and federal fees and surcharges on our phone bills, et cetera. A few years back, I saved all my receipts for a year and figured it out. I was living on 42% of my salary, the rest disappeared in taxes and assessed fees.

Morning Joe just wants to practice socialism until every government runs out of other people's money. BTW, I don't want CA, NY, IL, et cetera to go bankrupt and the federal govt then use everone else's taxes to bail them out!

Get out of my wallet! I'll happily pay for National Defense and reasonable govt activities, but as an example of how bad it is, here in Annapolis, we have 5th generation welfare folks living in public housing without any of the people in those five generations actually working a job and paying taxes.

I'm middle class and love rich people, but hate thieving politicians! Morning Joe is not far behind on my list of dislikes.

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It's funny that liberals

Submitted by Chris Norman on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 11:06pm.

It's funny that liberals pretend to champion a class of people for which normally they have nothing but contempt - especially when that class of people vote Republican. It's why their expressions of support for the middle class have a very tinny sound.

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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liberal champions

Submitted by yutsnark on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:03pm.

Actually, I think it's mostly conservatives who describe the poor as lazy and "welfare queens."

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Define welfare queen*

Submitted by cajun2 on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:47pm.

Almost 20% of medicaid/SSI recepients are permanently damaged drug addicts and alcoholics. They receive $675 a month and free medical coverage. 1.12 million illegal immigrants also receive medicaid/SSI. If a legal immigrant with a green card brings a disabled relative into the country, that relative is also eligible for medicaid/SSI benefits. These two programs were added to the SS/Medicare program to cover those who have NEVER paid a dime,zilch,zero, nada into the SS system. Then to complicate the SS program, the definition of disabled has been revised countless times to include,obesity,  autism, ADHD, and other "learning" disabilities that include minors. These disabilities were never shown to deminish ones ability to support themselves because they include minor children eliminating "parental responsibility" for their support. Its called "welfare entitlement mentality". The eligibility determinations for these two programs have been revised countless times since inception for "disability", allowing greater opportunity for fraud, as well as the increasing allowance of illegal immigrants to receive these benefits.. 

The expansion of eligibilty for these programs has been done with no consideration of the loss of revenue taken  from the medicare/SS program  which has been supported by wage earners paying into the system for the last 40 yrs. Welfare for those unable to care for themselves is of course an issue requiring solutions. But, liberals have been slowly redefining what is a "disabled" individual with no concern for the costly consequences to the SS system.

To argue conservatives "claim the poor are welfare queens" is a prime example of someone throwing insults in order to avoid a discussion of substance.

Statistics involving these programs are available at numerous government run websites as well as "watchdog'" websites. Medicaid/SSI are also the programs most suceptible to fraudulent claims by applicants as well as  medical provider fraud. Look it up. 

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I <3 Cajun

Submitted by Radical1979 on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:50pm.

You rock!

Proud member of the 53%!
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Ditto on dat

Submitted by SickofLibs on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:53pm.

.

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Actually--

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 2:03pm.

Alcoholism or drug addiction no longer qualifies a person for SSI.  I can believe that a lot of SSI recipients are substance abusers, but it's not the substance abuse diagnosis that qualifies them for funding.

Changing diagnostic criteria reflect changes in the diagnostic manuals used by physicians.  ADHD could not be covered until it was established as a diagnosis.  But I share your puzzlement about why children qualify for SSI.

As for  the definition of "welfare queen," you'd have to ask the people who use that term.  It certainly doesn't sound like a compliment, though.

 

 

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Yuts has comprehension problems*

Submitted by cajun2 on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 2:41pm.

Alcholics and drug addicts are eligibile for medicaid short term for in patient treatment plans. In most states it is called MNP with maximum 30 to 60 days eligibility.

What I did state was a drug addict or alcholic who has suffered damage from long term abuse and are now considered "disabled" are indeed eligible for medicaid and SSI benefits full time. Heart conditions, COPD, AIDS, and other related medical problems caused by drug addiction and alcholism that are  considered "disabilities" is sufficient to qualify for SSI and medicaid.

If a drug addict/alcoholic has been diagnosed with an illness or condition considered "disabling", then one of the restrictions requires that individual to participate in an  on going out patient treatment program to maintain "sobriety" in order to remain eligible for benefits. The addiction did not qualify them, the physical damage and consequences done from their life style has been accepted as qualifying.

It is cumbersome to explain in a small box about 200 pages of medicaid/medicare policy so I regret any problems clarifying current policies. The DHS with SS are in the process of reviewing some cost cutting regulations to medical providers regarding medicaid and medicare but I have not found any policy changes being recommended for receipient  eligibility for those programs.

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Good evening Cajun

Submitted by cocodrie on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:18pm.

The willful misunderstanding Yuts displays has earned him a seat in the peanut gallery. He is excellent at being obtuse so he gets a front row seat.

He makes a distinction between the addiction and the effects of the addiction being the determining factor qualifying them for benefits. Either way they should not be stealing my money through taxes forcibly taken from me. You spoke of SS cutting costs. Since I am 71 I suppose I will be one of the cuts. I don't look forward to an ACORN representative counseling me on how to exit this life because I am a financial burden on Present Obama's kingdom. I paid SS since I was 13 years old and they need to make room for all the "new  Americans" from south of the  border and the old Americans who choose not to work.

 

Jesus Loves You so much He died for you

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mon pauve ami*

Submitted by cajun2 on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 3:31pm.

Cocodrie, cajun is in the same "catagory" as you. The "death panels" that has so many people worried is only a small part of Obamacare. Rationing of health care will be a reality necessitated by the millions of people being "offered" govt. benefits as a choice over "private" insurance. That means, somebody gotta go. An the 26,000 health care commissions will have great power in decision making in all of our lives. SS and DHS are re-writing policy as we speak even though most of Obama care doesnt go into effect for 3 more years. Hopefully much re writing will have to take place when the glorious day comes when ObamaCare is repealed.

Have Faith Cocodrie, Live Long and Prosper.

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Thanks for clarifying, Cajun

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 5:32pm.

Thanks for clarifying, Cajun 2, and for your concern.

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Yutsnark - I was referring to

Submitted by Chris Norman on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 12:39am.

Yutsnark - I was talking about phony Democrat "support" for the middle class which I thought I had plainly stated by using the term "middle class". Why are referencing the poor and  "welfare queens" in your reply? What do they have to do with anything I wrote?

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Chris Norman

Submitted by yutsnark on Mon, 01/10/2011 - 9:43am.

Yeah, you were using the term "middle class," but I was talking about the poor.  Sorry about that.

What's your evidence that liberals are disdainful of the middle class?

 

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What they are advocating and

Submitted by rbosque on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 11:13pm.

What they are advocating and encouraging is an atmosphere whereby the theft of the wealthy is justified by those who don't make that much, typical Communists. That's stealing and most middle class won't do that. if those mutants are really concerned about income disparities, they can go down the street and cut poor people checks from the own account.

 

And these people call themelves "journalists"?

"It may be true that you can't fool all the people all the time, but you can fool enough of them to rule a large country"......Will Durant
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Good grief. When will the spin stop?

Submitted by Jer on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 11:19pm.

"Scarborough was a critic of the recent tax deal between Obama and the GOP, arguing that millionaires did not need the tax cuts as much as the country needed their tax revenue to pay down the deficit."


I watched the shows and heard Scarborough's comments.  He explicitly sided with the conservative Republicans in Congress who opposed the deal.

Jer

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Just wondering, Jer,

Submitted by 26CX on Tue, 01/04/2011 - 11:41pm.

Did Scarborough side with conservative Republicans who opposed the bill because it included the extension of unemployment benefits, or when you wrote "conservative Republicans" did you mean "RINOs"?

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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CX....

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:54am.

See reply to NVCon below.

Jer

edit.  Perhaps you can respond to the question I posed to NVCon.  He is apparently indisposed at the moment.

update:  Please feel free to address my query to Matthew, too.  He likewise appears to be occupied elsewhere.

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Jer

Submitted by 26CX on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:17am.

How about we let NVCon and Matthew speak for themselves?

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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CX

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:25am.

They already have.  They had not done so at the time of my edits, and since I felt the questions were likewise relevant to the issue you had raised, I thought you might be inclined to provide your input.  If not, that's fine.

Jer

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Morning, Jer

Submitted by 26CX on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:26am.

I'll be more than happy to respond when I get home from work this evening.

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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I'll look forward to it. 

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 7:28am.

I'll look forward to it.  Have a good day.

Jer

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The spin, Jer---

Submitted by matthewdean on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:12am.

if in existence, would be a balancing force of nature; the one described thusly: "for every action, there is a reaction, opposite and equal". That means that every time you, a liberal, try to convince conservatives here at NBs that Joe Scarborough is a conservative, the truth will be proclaimed in opposition to your statements. MD
"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Let's take one example, Matthew...

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:41am.

Scarborough is profoundly and relentlessly anti-Keynesian.  Would that be a conservative or liberal position?

Jer

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Jer---

Submitted by matthewdean on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:58am.

Scarborough is profoundly stupid and relentlessly ego-driven. By law, that makes him a liberal. You make the mistake of assuming that because Joe Scab occasionally "talks the talk" (conservative verbiage, from him, according to you), that he automatically has the chops to "walk the walk" as a conservative. You obviously believe what you continually preach; as for me, I will go with the majority of conservatives who have voiced their opposition to that particular spiel because it is obviously incorrect. MD
"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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In other words, Matthew...

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:39am.

ideology, political philosophy and policy have nothing to do with it.  Got it.

Jer

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Scarborough, Jer---

Submitted by matthewdean on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:02am.

in your mind, has only the political attributes you have assigned him.

Joe Scarborough may have been a conservative at some distant remove, but he is not now a conservative. If you think he has shown some conservative leanings reference whatever comes out of his mouth, that is ultimately only your opinion.

There are way too many posters on these threads who disagree with you, AND with Scarborough.

Conservative posters, I might add.

You being the Scab's campaign manager to convince NB'ers that he is a conservative reminds me precisely of Lib-Dims approval of McCain until he ran against ol' lips for prez, and of liberal's Democrats predilections for advising Republicans who their candidates for office should be.

Saying Scarborough is a conservative is just like saying Pelosi was the greatest Speaker of the House ever; you may believe it, but that doesn't make it true.

MD

"The credibility of the story is undermined by the selection of sources." - (h/t Jer)
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Clarification

Submitted by NevadanConservative on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:08am.

As has been observed from prior conversations, Jer's Idea of conservative Republicans  >IS< RINOs.

 

NVCon

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NevCon: Help me out, please...

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 12:24am.

Joe sided with the Congressional Republicans who opposed the tax deal and generally embraced the Tea Party position [i.e. also opposition because of additional spending' with respect to the compromise bill.]  So, I'll defer to your expertise.  Was this a RINO stance or a conservative stance which Scarborough took?

Jer

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Why, that's easy.

Submitted by NevadanConservative on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:15am.

Neither.

 He is a propagandist and opprotunist ... but at the moment NOT a sitting member of any legislative body. 

WHAT HE HAS TO SAY MEANS >NOTHING<.

Whatever he has to say is meant as a goad, or a smokescreen, or just a flat out lie, and should be discarded. 

oh... and you're welcome.

NVCon

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Well, Jer,

Submitted by 26CX on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 9:35pm.

I've read your post and found it sufficiently ambiguous that it doesn"t show Joe really "sided with the Congressional Republians who opposed the tax deal and generally  embraced the Tea Party position..."  

Saying that  Scarborough sided with Republicans who opposed the bill because he also opposed it doesn't compare the reasons for opposing the bill.  Scarborough was against the bill because he was against giving tax breaks to the very wealthy and said it would increase the debt. There were various elements of the bill that other people didn't like, and without knowing specifically why each of the 36 Congressional Republicans who voted against the bill did so, you can't assume that the majority of those Republicans and Scarborough opposed it for the same reasons.  

Some Tea Party factions opposed  the bill for two reasons:  the amount of pork included in the bill and the fact that the tax cuts were extended for only two years.  As mentioned above, Scarborough said that he opposed the bill because he thinks maintaining the current tax rates will increase the debt.  Knowing that, it's obvious that Joe didn't "embrace(d) the TEA Party position" in his opposition to the bill.

Just my humble opinion, but I think your statement about Scarborough is off-base.

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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CX...I'm afraid you'll need to support that assertion

Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 8:43am.

"http://Scarborough was against the bill because he was against giving tax breaks to the very wealthy and said it would increase the debt."

Really?  That was the basis of Scarborough's objection to the deal? 

Source please.

Remember, I watch Morning Joe. I saw the show where he stated his objections to the bill [did you?] and explicitly supported and applauded the Congressional Republicans who opposed the compromise.  Are you suggesting that Congressional Republican opposition was due to their desire to hike the tax rate on high income earners?  If so, with all due respect, you're not merely off base, but completely out of the ballpark. 

Jer

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Here you go, Jer.

Submitted by 26CX on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 7:53pm.

I guess you missed this episode of Joe's show:

"And on his MSNBC show this morning, former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough fumed at both sides, attacking Obama from the left for giving in to GOP demands, and hitting Republicans from the right for their empty, hypocritical rhetoric on the need for deficit reduction:

SCARBOROUGH: It is stunning to me that this president has extended Bush tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. This progressive president has tripled the number of troops in Afghanistan. This progressive president, that you say worries about deficit reduction — just like Republicans say they worry about deficit reduction — on the week the debt commission gets skewered for finding $4 trillion dollars the cut over a generation, Barack Obama and the Republicans added a trillion more dollars to that debt in one weekend. <...>"

 

In answer to your question "Are you suggesting that congressional Republican opposition was due to their desire to hike the tax rate on high income earners?"  let me refer you to the sentence in my post dealing with that topic (reproduced here for your convenience)

"There were various elements of the bill that other people didn't like, and without knowing specifically why each of the 36 Congressional Republicans who voted against the bill did so, you can't assume that the majority of those Republicans opposed it for the same reasons."

As you should be able to discern from carefully re-reading that sentence, there is no reference to what the opposition was based on. 

Please don't ask me to explain things that you erroneously read into what I write.

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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CX...

Submitted by Jer on Thu, 01/06/2011 - 11:17pm.

Mike Pence spoke for himself in particular and in general for the 36 conservative Congressional Republicans [many of whom had ties to the Tea Party movement] who eventually voted against the compromise bill by contending the American people did not want another "stimulus".

Scarborough is first and foremost an anti-Keynesian deficit hawk, and it was his position likewise that the tax compromise bill was nothing but another stimulus package which would tack on an additional trillion dollars in debt.  As such, on the morning after the vote, he singled out the Congressional Republicans for special praise, placing them on his personal "honor roll".

I agree with you that motives underlying votes will vary.  And even Scarborough's stance on taxing the very wealthy is not entirely free of ambiguity.  But the opposition from Republicans appears to have coalesced around a conviction that the bill failed to address debt reduction--that it would, on the contrary, increase the deficit.  And it was that very conviction which I submit Scarborough shared.  

Jer

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Jer, the article you linked

Submitted by 26CX on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 8:56pm.

Jer, the article you linked says:

"Pence joins the ranks of conservatives, many of whom have ties to the Tea Party movement, who have opposed the deal. The Indiana Republican echoed their arguments against the bill; Pence said the 13-month extension of unemployment benefits would only bloat the deficit, and that extending the tax rates for only two years wouldn’t provide adequate certainty in the markets." 

It seems clear from the paragraph that what Republican opposition there was to the tax cut bill was based on  the extension of unemployment benefits with a resulting increase to the deficit and that the current tax rates were extended for only two years - not because, as you said, the bill failed to address debt reduction.  

It's clear from Pence's comments that if the extension of unemployment benefits had been dropped from the bill, eliminating the extension's effects on the deficit, Republicans who were originally against it for that reason would have supported the bill. 

Had the Republicans who opposed the bill called for including legislation reducing the current deficit  I would agree with you, but since they didn't, I won't.

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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Then why did Scarborough

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:37am.

Then why did Scarborough state just a few days ago that he supports Jim DeMint's position that would refuse to support an increase in the debt ceiling until there were clear proposals put forward by the administration setting forth measures--at least in broad terms--explaining how spending will be reduced in coming months?

Also, do you believe the 36 Republicans who opposed the bill were more or less likely to be regarded--in general--as fiscal conservatives   Remember, conservative intellects shuch as George Will and Charles Krauthammer opposed it because they considered it just another near-trillion dollar stimulus package.

Jer

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Are you guys still at it?

Submitted by Chris Norman on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:44am.

Are you guys still at it? This threatens to pass up The Hundred Years' War.

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Chris...Unfortunately yes.

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:54pm.

And I'm blaming it all on CX.  He will not be deterred.  ;-)

Jer

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NoNoNo Chris Norman*

Submitted by cajun2 on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:58pm.

Now look at what you have done. Jer has this thing about numbers. Using "a hundred" has now only given him incentive to meet the challenge of making it  " a hundred and one years war".  

aaaaaahhhhhhh

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Okay, cajun...

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 2:11pm.

I'm still dealing with my 'numbers' issue...but at least my screen name isn't "26Jer"

Jer

or Jer2 for that matter.

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Good shot Jer*

Submitted by cajun2 on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 2:16pm.

rofl....2 points to the Jerster

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Dear, do you have any idea

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 2:23pm.

Dear, do you have any idea exactly what my point total is currently?  I lost count, and it's driving me nuts. Maybe we should just arbitrarily peg it at 100.

Jer

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Here ya go Jer*

Submitted by cajun2 on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:21pm.

C2       10

Jer         2

BTW: its Cajun too!

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So, cajun...

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:28pm.

you are saying that I was utterly pointless prior to today?

Jer

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Just for that Jer*

Submitted by cajun2 on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:50pm.

You get 2 more points just for making me rofl twice in one day.

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It's strange, isn't it,

Submitted by 26CX on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 2:32pm.

that someone would pick an obscure screen name like 26cx?

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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No...strange that I didn't

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:25pm.

No...strange that I didn't pick a screen name with a number.

Jer

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→ Jer666

Submitted by Cool Arrow on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:31pm.

Jer, we always thought the number was understood.

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It doesn't matter, Cool.  The

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:41pm.

It doesn't matter, Cool.  The world is ending on my birthday, anyway.

Jer

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→ In 2012, I hope

Submitted by Cool Arrow on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:43pm.

2011 is starting off so nicely, don't you think?

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I guess so, for the prophets

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:49pm.

I guess so, for the prophets of doom.

Nope, this year. [2011]

Jer

Link not opening.  See shawn's "forum about nothing"...toward the bottom.

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Look up 26CX*

Submitted by cajun2 on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:55pm.

Looks like we may need you soon. The first shots have been fired. What a tragedy. One of the 4 dead was a child.

http://nation.foxnews.com/congress/2011/01/08/congresswoman-shot-arizona

Would sure like to have you on "my team".

She is in critical condition with a gun shot to the head. The shooter has also been shot and is in custody. 

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Okay, Jer, let's recap:

Submitted by 26CX on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 10:17am.

On Tuesday at 10:19 PM you said that was "spin" to say Scarborough opposed the tax bill because millionaires didn't need the tax cuts as much as the country needed their money.  You also said that Scarborough "explicitly sided with the conservative Republicans in Congress who opposed the deal."

On Tuesday at 10:41 PM I asked you whether Scarborough opposed the bill because it included the extension of unemployment benefits.

On Tuesday at 11:24 PM you said that Scarborough sided with Congressional Republicans who opposed the bill and generally sided with the TEA Party position because of his opposition to additional spending.

On Wednesday at 2:14 AM you said that "What's funny is that Scarborough is not anti-rich at all."

On wednesday at 8:35 PM I said that the Republicans opposed the bill because of pork in the bill and because the current tax rates were extended for only two years.  I also said that since Scarboro's opposition to the bill was based on his belief that continuing current tax rates will increase the debt, he could not be considered to have generally sided with the TEA Party position.

On Thursday at 7:43 Am you asked me to support my claim that Scarborough was against the bill because it included giving tax breaks to the very wealthy.  You also questioned whether I thought the conservative Republicans opposed the bill because they wanted to hike the tax rates on the wealthy.

On Thursday at 6:53 PM I provided a link to comments from Scarborough's program in which he was quoted as saying "It is stunning to me that this president has extended Bush tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires."  I also pointed out that there was nothing I had written that indicated that I thought conservative Republicans wanted to join Scarborough in hiking tax rates for the very wealthy.

On Thursday at 10:17 PM you wrote that Mike Pence spoke in general for the Republicans who opposed the bill when he said that Americans did not want another stimulus.  You also wrote that Scarborough felt the tax compromise bill was "nothing but another stimulus package".  Also you wrote that Republican opposition "seemed to coalesce around around a conviction that the bill failed to address debt reduction..."

On Friday at 7:56 PM (we're almost done!) I wrote that Republican opposition to the tax bill was based on the extension of unemployment benefits and because the current rates were only extended for two years.  I also said that since the opposing Republicans had said nothing about legislation reducing the current deficit, I didn't agree with your statement that opposition was, in part, because the bill failed to address debt reduction.

This morning at 12:37 Am (we are obviously in different time zones) you introduced a question - which I take to be a non sequitur - about Jim DeMint's refusal to support an increase in the debt ceiling until the Obama administration made some proposals for spending reductions.  My response to your question is that since the debt ceiling issue wasn't part of the tax bill, they are two separate issues for the purpose of this discussion.  You also asked whether I thought the Republicans who opposed the bill are fiscal conservatives.  My answer to that is yes because they opposed the extension of unemployment benefits and wanted the current tax rates made permanent.  I don't consider Scarborough a fiscal conservative in this instance because his opposition to the tax bill was based on the wealthy being included in maintaining the current tax rates.

And now it's about 9:10 AM on Saturday and I'm ready for your comments!

"But my advice to you can be summed up in two words: Thicker skin." - Jer
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CX...

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:49pm.

http://On Tuesday at 10:19 PM you said that was "spin" to say Scarborough opposed the tax bill because millionaires didn't need the tax cuts as much as the country needed their money. You also said that Scarborough "explicitly sided with the conservative Republicans in Congress who opposed the deal."

I did, and I still believe it to be "spin" because it appeared to me to be a continuation of the pervasive and relentless NB narrative that Joe has abandoned his conservative priciples. And, when I heard Scarborough on Morning Joe explicitly applaud the Congressional Republicans who opposed the bill--primarily the conservative deficit hawks--and said they should be on an "honor roll", I thought it reasonable to characterize such as "siding with the Republicans in Congress."  That said, I should have made it clear that Scarborough was not necessarily against ending the existing rates on the very wealthy since he did believe it would deprive the treasury of needed revenues, but his overriding concern has been and continues to be deficit reduction.  And I could have and should have stated those latter points more cogently in my initial comment on this thread.

http://On Tuesday at 10:41 PM I asked you whether Scarborough opposed the bill because it included the extension of unemployment benefits.

Yes, you did.  I believe Scarborough said something to the effect that he would hate to be a candidate campaigning on the position of favoring continued tax relief for millionaires while denying continued unemployment benefits to those who are out of work.

On Tuesday at 11:24 PM you said that Scarborough sided with Congressional Republicans who opposed the bill and generally sided with the TEA Party position because of his opposition to additional spending.

True.  Again, Scarborough is first and foremost a deficit hawk and is primarily focused on excessive spending.  If you watch Morning Joe at all, that conclusion is inescapable and indisputable.  From what I have read, that also appears to be the principal basis on which the conservative Congressional Republicans opposed the bill--that it was essentially another trillion dollar stimulus package--and such was also reflective of many of the Tea Partier concerns.  However, I agree with you that motives vary and are difficult to pigeonhloe.  But the Pence article I cited does lend credence to my argument.

On Wednesday at 2:14 AM you said that "What's funny is that Scarborough is not anti-rich at all."

Yep.  I sure did.  You think he is?

On wednesday at 8:35 PM I said that the Republicans opposed the bill because of pork in the bill and because the current tax rates were extended for only two years.  I also said that since Scarboro's opposition to the bill was based on his belief that continuing current tax rates will increase the debt, he could not be considered to have generally sided with the TEA Party position.

That analysis is far too simplistic.  I would suggest that if you individually polled the Republican members of Congress, at least 90% would express opposition to pork in the bill and support for making the tax rates permanent.  So why didn't far more vote "No"?   I would also bet that Tea Party opinion is anything but monolithic with respect to tax rates and that a significant number would support a small hike on those earning a million or more per year if the rates remained the same for others.

On Thursday at 7:43 Am you asked me to support my claim that Scarborough was against the bill because it included giving tax breaks to the very wealthy.  You also questioned whether I thought the conservative Republicans opposed the bill because they wanted to hike the tax rates on the wealthy.

Yes, and you did a good job in supporting your claim, but again it misleads [not intentionally] because it suggests a "soak the rich" attitude to be the critical underpinning of his opposition.  That is not the case.

I'll address your remaining points a little later.

Sorry for the part red and part black font.  That's been another problem I've encountered since the redesign.

Jer

BTW, I linked this in an earlier post, but if you haven't watched it, I would recommend it.  The clip is still available but probably for not too much longer.  It is entitled "Debt ceiling, etc." and is about the eighth one from the bottom when scrolling through the recent clips on the left.  Jeffrey Sachs--a liberal economist--is the individual pictured.  There is a good bit of input from Scarborough, which should give you further insight into his views.





 

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Note.  The clip is entitled

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:53pm.

Note.  The clip is entitled "Debating the debt ceiling, tax cuts, etc."

Jer

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Jer and Scarborough

Submitted by Agnostic on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 9:19pm.

Scarborough has made several conservative points through the last couple of years but I would not say that he is even fiscally conservative.  Not because he isn't the deficit hawk that you say he is but that his idea of what is and isn't going to add to the deficit is not consistantly conservative.  His use of attacks against Republicans, also not always conservatives, may play well to his employers and the liberal portion of his adudience but it makes him a divisive representative of the Republican Party.  No more divisive than others but his attacks usually come from the left when they are not stimulus related.  As you probably guess it is generally okay to be divisive from the right. ;)

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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Right, Agnostic, he strongly

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:45am.

Right, Agnostic, he strongly criticized the Bush administration's excessive spending and the Republican Congress for acting as enablers--the identical criticism leveled by many other conservatives. The only ones Joe has criticized more are the current administration and the Democratic Congress who have made their predecessors seem like misers.  And you call that the conduct of a fiscal liberal or attacking from the right?

Jer

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Fiscal Liberal?

Submitted by Agnostic on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 1:48pm.

Not sure what that is but I get the image of Betty and Wilma screaming "Charge It!" as they run out the door.

He has been fairly consistant at his complaints about spending however I do disagree with him at times about how certain bills/policies will effect the budget and therefore he will seem to be coming from the left because something I believe will be harmful Joe may believe to be neutral or beneficial.  His beliefs on the effects of certain issues are why I wouldn't consider Joe to be a conservative even though I do encourage his fight against spending in general.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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Agnostic...

Submitted by Jer on Sat, 01/08/2011 - 3:37pm.

LOL...Fiscal liberal:  Free pie for everybody!--(except those making over 250G per year).

Jer

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Who Cares?

Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:30am.

"Bennet pointed out top hedge fund managers making over a billion dollars a year, and suggested Americans would like to see more of that money back."                                                                                                                                                                            Why would I want it back? They didn't take it from me. Did they swindle it out of others? Do they owe someone restitution?

Good grief, to listen to these people, tax policy has as much to do with with punishing the rich to assuage the jealousy of the poor as it has to do with raising revenue for the government in some equitable manner - or, at most,. trying to jump start the stalled economy They're quite open about it now. I have no love for the rich. I have no dislike or resentment towards them either. I'm too busy with my own life trying make a living to dwell on them.

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Who cares? I do!

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:36am.

On this I would have to say that I do care.  Not about the "rich" or getting the "money back" but about what these type of funds do to the economy.  A dollar made by these people is like a brain surgeon working as a waiter - sure he is working but not with any economic effeciency.  Not as bad but similar to wealth distribution via the tax base.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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All that and you focus on two

Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:54am.

All that and you focus on two words? My question was limited to punishing the the rich through tax policy as a means "to getting the money back". If what these people do is illegal there is a remedy for that. If their activities are indeed damaging to the economy, then you can look to regulate them. As always, if you regulate them simply because you disapprove of their activities, it opens up the process for liberals to try and rein in and regulate business activities they don't like - and we don't like that - right?

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Sorry Chris,

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:06am.

But after reading several other economically challenged blogs, posts and replies I admit to getting a little picky about things concerning the nation's wealth.  A blog on economic incompetence gets crickets chirping while another asinine remark by the usual subjects can fill up an Alaskan size portion of band width.

Btw - not interested in regulating them.  <ala GHWB> Education good - more government bad.

Quick question: Why do you think the media never point out the difference between people with high income and people who are wealthy?  Especially when talking about taxes they never point out that the truly rich aren't touched by increase income taxes.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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To be honest, I haven't

Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:13am.

To be honest, I haven't thought about it. As such, you give me your answer and I will use that as an educated guide. However, I've moved my bedtime later than I intended but, unfortunately, the alarm at 6:00 am doesn't move with it. Rats.

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Night Chris!

Submitted by Agnostic on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:24am.

Understand the alarm situation all too well.

Quick answer - It is not about hating the wealthy it is about getting taxes and tax generated programs written into law.  The rest of the answer would have to do with why they want them written into law and if they even care what taxes and programs actually do but as you say it is getting late.

. . Socialist = Modern Liberal = Parasitoid
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Chris...

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 1:33am.

Please check out the clip I linked in my reply to NeoKong above.  Pay attention to Scarborough's comments.  The notion that he is anti-rich is ludicrous.  His tax and spending positions could hardly be any more conservative.  Sachs and Deutsch are libs.  Barnicle is something-or-other.  And Mika is a non-entity [but even her brief remarks should not be disagreeable to you.]

Jer

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Jer, I saw and will take

Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:02am.

Jer,

I saw and will take your word for it (it's getting late and I have to get up at 6:00 am as usual to scrape out my meager living. I doubt that Scarborough is as liberal as some here think. I do know that he has reinvented himself, a la Lou Dobbs, as some sort of raving populist. As with many populists, his political/economic philosophy and message are incoherent. He no longer seems to have any core political philosophy other than to say scathing and snarky things against everyone - vacillating back and forth - all over the place - sensible one time and just nasty the next. All I can guess is he knows that when he was a dull straight-laced conservative on MSNBC he was getting no traction. Now, as a pox on them all populist he is regularly quoted here and other places. Scarborough has risen about as far as he can on the limited stage that is MSNBC in the early hours. I have never cared for Scarborough. I found him wooden and unnatural in his early days and he still seems wooden - but trying way too hard not to be. If he's still, as you say, a conservative, he sure tries hard not to be confused or associated with his fellow conservatives in politics.

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Thank you, Chris...

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:03am.

for at least taking the time to provide a very thoughtful and insightful response.  I don't entirely agree with you--although I do in part--but I am very grateful to have your perspective.

Jer

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Jer,

Submitted by Chris Norman on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:25am.

You're welcome and thank you for the kind words. I've realized that there is way too much nastiness and too many personal attacks on the threads at NB lately and I intend to keep a close eye on my own behavior. Does this mean I've gone soft? Nope. It just means I will keep the debate civil to the best of my ability. I'm going to hit the hay now. At best, now I'm down to six and a half hours of potential sleep tonight. Great, my bags will have bags in the morning. Good night.  :)

Let's make the 2012 campaign: "The War on Error"
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Hope that doesn't mean you've

Submitted by Jer on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 2:35am.

Hope that doesn't mean you've been consigned to the barn.  Sleep well.

Jer

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New game

Submitted by TerryWest on Wed, 01/05/2011 - 3:15am.

 Now that the old main stream seems to have slowed in trying to manipulate and control the black voice and agenda they now have moved to the middle class. Frankly the only frustration I have heard from the middle class regarding the wealthy is towards the Unions. 
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I've heard complaints from

Submitted by yutsnark on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 6:01pm.

I've heard complaints from the middle class about the Wall Street bailouts.  I suppose that has to do with the wealthy.

I've also heard complaints about oil company executives.

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Yutsnark, stop watching the alphabets then...

Submitted by NavyBuckeye on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 8:33am.

and actually talk to people. I'm in charge of a bunch of blue collar workers: about 30 to be exact. I have a good relationship with most of them, even the ones with opposite political beliefs. Out of the whole crew only the biggest liberal of them all even mentioned that oil executives make too much money.

But he was easily fended off when I told him he makes too much money. He laughed and said I know better that he doesn't. I looked him in the eye and said "Well then i will let you go and hire a guy willing to make less." He just narrowed his eyes.

He replied "My experience dicatates I make the amount I make and you know this."

I replied "Yeah, but you make too much." His buddy replied "Yep, I agree because he makes more than me!"

He just threw his hands up and walked offf.

His buddy looked at me and said "He gets and understands your point but he will never admit to it because you just proved your point using him as an example"

Most people that work for me just want to be able to keep the money that they do make. The biggest grumble I hear is always taxes are too high: all of them.

"Pffffttttttttttt"-Owen, age 8 when ever he hears Obama speaking on the TV.
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NavyBuckeye

Submitted by yutsnark on Tue, 01/11/2011 - 5:00pm.

Hey, a couple years ago I saw the Buckeyes play Navy in Columbus.  102,000 people in the stands.  Buckeyes won, of course.

But on the topic at hand -- are your blue collar workers okay with the Wall Street bailout?  If so, was the widespread opposition just a creation of the media?

 

 

 

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