Kevorkian's Attorney on MSNBC: He Will Be Remembered as a 'True Hero' and 'Martyr'
As news broke of Dr. Jack's Kevorkian death on Friday, MSNBC anchor Chris Jansing invited on defense attorney and friend Geoffrey Fieger to praise the convicted criminal known as 'Dr. Death': "Dr. Jack Kevorkian will be looked at as a hero, a true hero, and as a martyr for what they did to him for nine years. Putting him in prison..." [Audio available here]
Jansing began the interview by wondering about Kevorkian's legacy: "Was he a dying patient's savior or a cold-blooded killer?" As soon as she introduced Fieger, he immediately argued: "I doubt very many people will ever remember him as a cold-blooded killer. Obviously there's some on the fringe, but I think most of us would recognize his, not only his greatness and his kindness and his beneficence and his importance."
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Even Jansing seemed to buy into Fieger's apologist rant: "There is still an ongoing debate, though, about assisted suicide....What was it about this cause that made him [Kevorkian] willing to go to prison?" Fieger proclaimed: "Well, he was a historic man who believed absolutely from the bottom of his soul in the right of the patient before him to make decisions about his or her own life and to be able to make decisions about ending one's own suffering, even if that meant ending the patient's life. He thought that was the role of the physician and he was right."
Fieger further asserted that opponents of assisted suicide had been "marginalized" and even suggested that efforts to reform Medicare would mean that "you can't just spend money limitlessly to keep people alive based upon a philosophical or religious belief."
Here is a full transcript of the June 3 segment:
10:42AM
CHRIS JANSING: Was he a dying patient's savior or a cold-blooded killer? Those questions will probably always be asked about Dr. Jack Kevorkian, the man known as 'Dr. Death,' who allegedly assisted in as many as 130 suicides. Kevorkian died this morning at the age 83 and the man who defended him at trial, Geoffrey Fieger, joins us live from Detroit. Geoffrey, good to see you. I'm so sorry for your loss. Thanks for being with us.
GEOFFREY FIEGER: Thank you, Chris.
JANSING: You know-
FIEGER: And I doubt very many people will ever remember him as a cold-blooded killer. Obviously there's some on the fringe, but I think most of us would recognize his, not only his greatness and his kindness and his beneficence and his importance.
JANSING: There is still an ongoing debate, though, about assisted suicide, as you well know, and I remember our conversations when he went to prison and when he was released. And you knew him so well. What was it about this cause that made him willing to go to prison?
FIEGER: Well, he was a historic man who believed absolutely from the bottom of his soul in the right of the patient before him to make decisions about his or her own life and to be able to make decisions about ending one's own suffering, even if that meant ending the patient's life. He thought that was the role of the physician and he was right.
And I really think that the debate about it, at least in terms of his opponents, has been marginalized. There hasn't been the slippery slope that was predicted. Oregon and Washington state have permitted it for years and there haven't been any of the dire predictions. And now with the Medicare and Medicaid debate, the fact that you can't just spend money limitlessly to keep people alive based upon a philosophical or religious belief. In the coming decades, Dr. Jack Kevorkian will be looked at as a hero, a true hero, and as a martyr for what they did to him for nine years. Putting him in prison, in the deepest holes of Michigan's prison system, and holding him incommunicado.
JANSING: And he had been in the hospital for the last couple of weeks. I wonder, Geoffrey, when the last time was that you spoke with him and did you talk to him about his legacy?
FIEGER: No, he didn't – Jack was never a guy who liked to look back and as a result, neither he nor I have ever written about it. He and I were together a lot during the making most recently of the Al Pacino movie and the documentary. He had entered the hospital several weeks ago and gotten out and I spoke to him just before he went back in. Since he's been in the hospital, no one's spoken to him. The doctors wanted him to be, to not have any guests. I spoke to his physician everyday, his personal physician Stan Levy, but I had not spoken to him since he went back in the second time. He's been there about ten days.
JANSING: Again, Jack Kevorkian died this morning at the age of 83. Geoffrey Fieger, his defense attorney and friend, good to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on and again, our sympathies.
FIEGER: Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me. Thank you.
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Comments
A little joke
Submitted by beauxdog on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:09pm.
Q: What do you get when you the let the RIGHT to die become the DUTY to die?
A: Obamacare
If all men were islands...
Submitted by beauxdog on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:12pm.
then the RIGHT to die would make sense because your decision to end your suffering would not affect others. In the real world, the RIGHT to die quickly would become the DUTY to die... Geez, Dad, Johnny's father offed himself to save the family from inconvenience and depleting the kid's inheritance. Why do you hate us so much?
It will not take long to
Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:16pm.
It will not take long to de-volve into that I'm afraid. It will be an obligation. I think the Eskimo culture did that (TV program level of info) but I am sure this is nothing new over the course of history. Moving backwards with Lean-Forward Progressives. Who was that, that said fairly recently, that, for the health care system to work, due to cost, the sickest or frail must be killed? Sounds a whole lot like the Nazis no? I tell you these libs & "reporters" can't see the writing on the wall.
-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.
"True hero", "martyr"? We
Submitted by rbosque on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:27pm.
"True hero", "martyr"?
We shall see what God says about it.
A prayer to Kevorkian, dedicated to my kids:
Submitted by SickofLibs on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:36pm.
Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep,
If I'm alive when I awake.
I pray my life a Kevorkian disciple won't take.
Amen.
Jack Kevorkian died today… of
Submitted by Reaver on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:35pm.
Jack Kevorkian died today… of natural causes. Says it all, no suicide pill for Doctor Death.
Just how schizophrenic is our Government?
Submitted by Blonde on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:34pm.
By law, women have the "right to choose" what "to do" with their bodies, when it comes to aborting a baby. Of course, the baby, an innocent, gets no choice in the matter whatsoever. Too bad, so sad, little sentient being. You have no right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is NOT within the purview of the government to constrict your mother's freedom of choice to do with as she'd like with her own body.
However, for an adult in this society, facing a terminal (and probably painful) disease, there is NO "right to choose" what to do with one's own body, i.e. end one's life with dignity when life becomes too difficult to bear.
And someone, a doctor, with the courage of his convictions to aid competent adults to make a "choice" decision gets prosecuted and put in jail?
Someone, please, tell me what's wrong with this picture?
RIP Dr. Kevorkian. You fought the good fight, sir.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Thank you Blonde
Submitted by shawn. on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 6:46pm.
Finally somebody that gets it.
Thank you again Blonde
Submitted by mandrake on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 8:59pm.
I have never supported abortion..But on the other hand I don't wish to be a burden on my family as my arthritis progresses..afraid I face a long painfull death..hope someone pulls the plug before I become a burden.
~Depends on your definition
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:50pm.
of 'burden'. *checks watch*
My definition
Submitted by mandrake on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:53am.
Well, I know I started out in life wearing diapers..but I sure don't want to leave wearing them. Some dignity please.
Dignity?
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:20am.
Don't worry. One of the first things you will do when you die will be urinating and defecating on yourself.
You do not enter the world in a dignified fashion and you don't leave in a dignified fashion wither. Dignity is for human beings from around teenage years to about a few seconds before death.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Blonde=libertarian?
Submitted by goodone91 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:04pm.
Blonde, are you on the libertarian slightly-far Right? The "Right to Die",really? Were you just IGNORING the others when they warned about the (false) right becoming a(n equally false) duty?!
P.S. I am a middle-of-the-Right Tea Party Republican. If you need proof, my name on Facebook is Vinny Raineri. Check my posts to my Wall.
The two are not the same thing at all
Submitted by Blonde on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:24pm.
Entirely separate issues.
What an individual chooses to do with his or her own life in a terminal situation, is between oneself, one's family, and one's God. It is a place where the Government has no business.
And the "false" duty to die, at the hands of the government, is a pitfall of "free" health care. When one isn't paying for one's own anything, one has to take into consideration the wishes and desires of the one who IS paying. If the Government isn't involved in providing for healthcare, they can't withhold it either, can they?
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Answer my question!
Submitted by goodone91 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:40pm.
I noticed you did not answer me. Are you or are you not a libertarian?
Besides,the government should be involved in life-and-death situations. It was meant, partially, to protect the right to life, hence the enumeration of said right in the Declaration of Independence.
~Who died and made you Thread God?
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:49pm.
Blonde is under no obligation to explain her personal views to you.
That was a good one, goodone91---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:52pm.
"Answer my question!"
Indeed.
I must have missed the memo saying your orders are to be followed to the letter.
I thought Blonde gave a very substantial reply; but, of course, since you are of a different mind regarding what the government can and can't do, or should and shouldn't do, you apparently feel that gives you the right to act the martinet.
I certainly hope Blonde's next reply doesn't dissuade you from sticking with such silly notions, as they are most entertaining.
MD
You haven't had enough water pass beneath your bridge here at NB
Submitted by Dave. on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:59pm.
...to even begin to challenge J on any subject.
And I agree with her, as our bodies belong to us, not the government, and what we as individuals choose to do to or with them is between us and God.
-Dave
Vote for the American in November
OMO!
Submitted by Blonde on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:08pm.
That's quite a second post.
Learn some manners, then try again.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
~Second post
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:19pm.
He found the perfect thread to attempt an "assisted suicide" on.
LOL
LOL, Bru
Submitted by Blonde on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:33am.
That, my friend, was a POST!
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Unknown Why, But, Made Me Think Of...
Submitted by stratman on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:38pm.
Silence! I keel you.
Achmed's funny. New guy not so much.
New guy a member 1 year and 18 weeks and only 2 threads posted on so far, those being less than 2 weeks old. Sleeper account?
I'm sorry
Submitted by goodone91 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:30pm.
I shouldn't have phrased that as a command. People being non-responsive to my questions is just one of my pet peeves.
So, Blonde, will you please tell me if you're a libertarian?
What's it to you?
Submitted by Blonde on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 11:24pm.
And why are you stalking me?
I don't give a rat's ass about your "pet peeves".
Carry on, Francis.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Dear Blonde:
Submitted by beauxdog on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:03am.
I completely understand your position and even sympathize. I once held the same opinion that you do... until I saw an interview on television where a lady who was against assisted-suicide pointed out that the right to die will lead to the duty to die.
Ahhh... the slippery slope theory. But does this theory hold water?
We started with Playboy showing a little titty... now we have 8 year olds performing oral sex on video.
We started with abortion in the first trimester, mainly to help victims of rape or incenst... now we have doctors partially delivering babies, sticking a shiv into their skulls and sucking out their brains.
We have an income tax that started out as just a few percent points of income on only the wealthiest people... now we have income tax rates that suck most of us dry. In my father's day, the dad worked and the mother stayed at home to raise the kids. Now both my wife and I have to work our asses off and still can't afford to pay all the taxes... so the entitlement class doesn't have to work.
Columbine was a horror... today, a new school shooting is tisk, tisk, what is the world coming to?
I agree with you absolutely that a person in terminal pain is a tragedy... but what people do in their private lives affects all of us. In the small picture, I would say let them go. In the big picture, we can't afford to go down that path... a few suffer now so that the multitudes will not suffer later.
Ditto Dear Blonde...
Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:17pm.
I also understand Blonde's position, but as beauxdog suggests, it is inevitably way beyond slippery. You have heard stories of how the kids want Dad or Mom to kick off. Once accepted, this would make killing them so much easier because "they did not want to suffer" and say "they felt a burden to the kids" when in fact it was the kids who wanted them dead. So they slip them something, and viola, their dead. Now "per Dad's wishes. " When in fact it was not. And "now" that it is common, fewer red flags (on being caught) will be raised since it became so common. The value of life, IMO, will in fact be degraded. There is no question in my mind, as a result, suicide in all age groups would become accepted when you have problems or "loose face" like how Japan use to be (and partially still is).
Unsane pointed this out in a post farther down this thread: "If you want to kill yourself, do it. Don't expect a doctor to help you. And why do I feel that way? Because simply put it opens up the door to many possibilities of abuse. "
-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.
I'm with Fieger
Submitted by michiganruth on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:14pm.
people seem to have this weird idea that Kevorkian MURDERED people. he did not. people came to him--they sought him out from all over the country--because they had made the decision not to continue living. even if we disagree with it, it was their choice. nobody forced anyone to submit to Dr. K; in fact, he would only agree to help if the patient him/herself wanted it.
also, can we stop making statements like "we'll see what God has to say about it"? I do it myself sometimes (imagining Helen Thomas standing in front of Him) but really, it's presumptuous. can we agree that none of us really knows what God is likely to say about it?
Why go about it like this?
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:19pm.
If they wanted to kill themselves, they could have downed two valium and a shot of whiskey. Or swallowed a gun and pulled the trigger. There are many ways one can die.
If I made it my goal to kill myself, I wouldn't go to a doctor. I can do that in a matter of moments with no problems.
You may look at life as an extremely cheap thing, just as all of Kevorkian's supporters look at life as extremely cheap, but I and millions of others do not. Hence I'm not good with permitting doctors to murder people. And make no mistake, Kevorkian DID murder people.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
No, he didn't
Submitted by Blonde on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:26pm.
It's no one's business how anyone chooses to end one's life, particularly in a terminal disease situation. And if I choose to do it, under the supervision of a doctor so it's done correctly with as little pain (to me and more importantly my family), that should be my right.
What business is it of yours or anyone else's?
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
I'm with you
Submitted by Tugboat Phil on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:40pm.
right up to the point where a doctor assists. Create a new occupation for doing this if it's to be done, but doctors shouldn't be doing this anymore than they should be doing abortions. Doctors are placed on the line of life and death in too many instances. If they are, it should be leaning toward life. I'm still of the school of "first do no harm."
Just my $.02.
End of life care
Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:02pm.
I wonder how necessary this would be if we would manage pain more effectively. There are so many options available, but doctors hands are sometimes tied when it comes to using them, even at the end stages of life.
Phil
Submitted by Blonde on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:13pm.
The reason I would choose a doctor is because most of us, particularly who have been at the mercy of a chronic and/or terminal disease, have developed very close and trusting relationships with our physicians.
Your point about "first do no harm" is well taken, however. I don't think it's unreasonable for a physician to be able to discuss assisted suicide "options" with a patient, but I would certainly understand if a doctor (any kind of doctor) chose not to participate in the act itself. However, I don't think "assisted suicide" ought to be illegal.
I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to do myself in, but I surely would like to have the option available if and when the time comes.
Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
Exactly J
Submitted by shawn. on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:18pm.
If you do not believe in assisted suicide that is one thing, but why is it so important for some folks to tell others they can't choose to do it. Freedom is a funny word. Everyone seems to have their own definition.
~No man is an island --John Donne
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:40pm.
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings; it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront…The man’s crime is different from other crimes–for it makes even crimes impossible.--G.K. Chesterton
Now shawn, before you snidely "thank" me for the pretty poem and indulge in a shawnasm let me inform you that this is posted to give readers another angle to think about and I require no answer from you. I put this here merely because your comment made a perfect segue.
Not at all Bru
Submitted by shawn. on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:49pm.
Curious why you put it as a reply to my post instead of the poster I replied to. Pick your battles wisely I guess.
~This part
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:45am.
why is it so important for some folks to tell others they can't choose to do it. Freedom is a funny word. Everyone seems to have their own definition.
Blonde's comment was personal. Your comment excerpted above was general and directed towards the philosophy against suicide, so I presented the philosophical argument in answer to your "why".
While we're on the topic, I'd like to point out that modern drugs have contributed to prolonged and painful deaths because people don't go out quickly with things like pneumonia the way they used to. Pneumonia was once referred to as the "old person's friend" because of that.
Thank you.
Submitted by shawn. on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:24pm.
Thank you.
Suicidal failure
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:27am.
If you need help to kill yourself, how helpless (or pathetic) can you be?
"I'm a suicidal failure, I gotta have some help! Got suicidal tendencies, but I can't kill myself!"
- Suicidal Tendencies, "Suicidal Failure", from Suicidal Tendencies (1983)
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Suicide is by definition a
Submitted by NL207 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:07am.
solitary deed. Once a second party is involved in the commission of the act, it is no longer a suicide. We have a name for such 'bipartisan' acts : murder. There is another name for 'mercy killing' : euthanasia. Would you like to defend these evils today?
Opening the door
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:24am.
I don't like the idea of making murder easier. If I am terminally ill and I react by filling up my Beretta, and place it at my temple and pull the trigger - who in the hell is going to stop me?
If you want to kill yourself, do it. Don't expect a doctor to help you. And why do I feel that way? Because simply put it opens up the door to many possibilities of abuse.
Besides, there is zero dignity in death, no matter how it is done.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
God gave us a Commandment,
Submitted by rbosque on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:27pm.
God gave us a Commandment, "Thou shalt not kill". That includes suicide stupid. And God will judge him.
It's "Thou Shalt Not MURDER", Idiot...
Submitted by TheReal7Sticks on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:59pm.
The true text of the Ten Commandments never said anything about not being able to kill, it only said "Thou Shalt Not Murder." If the other way was the case, would we have it any easier in trying to defend ourselves against terrorists and violent criminals? After all, the ACLU could just try to use that interpretation of the sixth commandment you foolishly quoted to justify the banning of the Department of Defense or the second amendment or any means of defending ourselves from dangerous, violent forces that would kill us before we could kill back in defense.
TheReal7Idiots
Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 8:32pm.
Many religions teach the commandment as "Thou shalt not kill", including my own. It's the basis for people like Quakers to avoid fighting in combat and some religions being against the death penalty.
Smug stupid troll.
My religion's interpretation of that Commandment
Submitted by goodone91 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:10pm.
My religion has "Thou shalt not murder" as the Sixth Commandment, but "murder" is defined to include "Unintentional Manslaughter" and, yes, "Suicide".
Did I hear Feiger correctly?
Submitted by ProudAmerican58 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:38pm.
Kevorkian believed it was the role of the physician to end one's life?!!!
Martyr???
Submitted by rickbren on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:42pm.
If he had gassed himself, maybe. But he died the total hypocrite.
How so sir?
Submitted by shawn. on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:49pm.
I did not realize he was suffering.
Why was he in a hospital?
Submitted by CobraMan on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:38am.
Why was he in a hospital, unless he was suffering? People who aren't suffering don't need a hospital to care for them.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
I Don't Even See This As A Left Or Right Issue...
Submitted by TheReal7Sticks on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 7:51pm.
I've tend to become more conservative over the last couple of years, and part of that involves the continuing pursuit of cold, hard logic, and I have a very logical answer for this: The MSM was solely responsible for dragging Dr. Kevorkian's good name though the mud. And since we all know that the MSM is predominantly liberal, it begs the question: Why would liberals want to persecute someone who, by most accounts, they would agree with on issues like assisted suicide and trying to help people who want to die do so? Simple: The MSM treats anyone and anything that has a controversial element to them as some sort of diabolical plot in order to get ratings. Why do you think the MSM keeps conflating sex offenders with child predators even though statistics show many sex offenders are prosecuted for crimes unrelated to children? The MSM will make a boogeyman out of any one, conservative or liberal, all just to feed the bottom line. It's like a Howard Beale nightmare come true.
I don't necessarily believe
Submitted by mostlymoderate on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 8:00pm.
I don't necessarily believe in the right to die; however, I do believe in the right to lots and lots and LOTS of powerful drugs to ease pain and suffering for the terminally ill.
Kevorkian's lawyer
Submitted by cesar.zalamero on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 8:49pm.
Fieger is well-known in Michigan as a sleazy personal-injury lawyer. A Midwest version of John Edwards.
Yeah, without the
Submitted by UpNorth on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:01pm.
good hair-do.
And, imagine if you will, the dems nominated this clown to run for governor in 98. And yet, as deranged as he is, he still garnered 1 million+ votes from the clowns on the east side of the state.
He will be remembered as a manipulative
Submitted by Funbowhunter on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 8:51pm.
MURDERER.
buh bye jack
Submitted by scarletandgold on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 8:54pm.
he will be remembered a hero.?..progressives throw that word so easily..lol no that old creep will be forgotten by tommowrow..
I'd have bet $100 that the
Submitted by Rusty Shackleford on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:01pm.
I'd have bet $100 that the guy died over 10 years ago in prison. I swear I heard that.
Let's drop all this nonsense about how he's now facing God for murder. First of all, it's not murder when someone expresses a desire for you to kill them over a prolonged period of time and when they do so with a sound mind. Perhaps if God doesn't want people killing themselves when they have painful incurable diseases he should have designed our bodies with the ability to fight these kinds of diseases (if it was even an all powerful and all good God to begin with... reality makes a lot more sense when you consider the fact that God might not be as perfect and all powerful as we've been lead to believe).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Matthews: The Joy Behar of MSNBC.
Bill Maher: The Joy Behar of HBO.
Paul Krugman: The Joy Behar of The New York Times.
More cheap views
Submitted by Unsane on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:19pm.
What a cheap view of life.
If you are suffering from some incurable disease and want to blow your brains out, DO IT. Don't expect me or others like doctors to help.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Uns---
Submitted by matthewdean on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:57pm.
gotta go with the pill route.
The other way leaves one hell of a mess.
Unless you go out into the wild.
MD
Death is always messy
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:31am.
Death is always messy. I love seeing how many people here on this thread and elsewhere actually think there can be "death with dignity".
But granted, some deaths are messier than others.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
~Not quite
Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:26pm.
reality makes a lot more sense when you consider the fact that God might not be as perfect and all powerful as we've been lead to believe
Actually, reality makes sense when you consider the fact that God gave humanity free will.
As a society, we make sure
Submitted by Hippopaulimus on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:20pm.
As a society, we make sure the most disgusting forms of murdering human filth are put down like the beloved family pet,
Yet we allow, and expect grandma to choke to death on a tumor!
Dr. Kevorkian became famous for creating a machine that the suffering individual operated to end their life. But, like most radicals, he took his beliefs too far. And, contrary to what someone posted above, he began injecting individuals himself. That was the line crossed that landed him in jail.
He was not an individual suffering from intense chronic pain, and died after a brief illness of natural causes. Therefore he was neither a hypocrite or a martyr .
White - does not mean racist
Heterosexual - does not mean homophobic
Male - does not mean sexist
Deader then Dead
Submitted by xfiler93 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 9:39pm.
Well, I wouldnt want to be where his is right now, way too warm for my tastes.
I used to be against a person
Submitted by Pinetree3 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:05pm.
I used to be against a person choosing to end their life,,,back when I was young and strong. I am no longer young and strong. Now it amazes me that people would want to see loved ones suffer as painfully and for as long as possible in a hospital instead of allowing them to choose to end their suffering.
Choosing death?
Submitted by Radical1979 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:11pm.
People don't want to see their loved ones suffer pain for as long as possible in a hospital. It's devastating to watch. But with the use of pain killers and allowing nature to take it's course, we can allow death to happen in as peaceful a way as possible.
Are we so now used to such instant gratification that we cannot wait for death to call us? We need to rush towards it if it is taking to long?
Good old cheap convenience
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:33am.
It amazes me to see how many people have such a cheap view of life and how many people desperately want birth, life and death to happen ONLY at the CONVENIENCE of those already here.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
there's a stupidity pandemic out there, I swear
Submitted by lotr on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:14pm.
"He will be remembered as a 'true hero' and 'martyr'."
Ignorance knows no bounds these days. Just how does killing one's elders constitute "heroism"?
Sanity check:
In July 1941, a prisoner escaped from Father Maximilian Kolbe's barracks at Auschwitz. As part of their modus operandi to discourage this sort of behavior, the Nazis pulled out 10 prisoners to be condemned to death by starvation. One of these bitterly cried out that he was a married man with a family.
So Maximilian stepped forward to address the Commandant, who then asked, 'What does this Polish pig want?' Maximilian replied 'I am only a priest, whereas this man has a wife and children; let me take his place.'
Maximilian was then condemned to the death chamber with the nine other men. He spent the last two weeks of his life, while dying a slow, torturous death, encouraging these men by praying and and singing hymns with them.
He was still alive in mid-August. So the Nazis executed him by injecting him carbolic acid.
This is what a "true hero and martyr" is.
This issue is as old as the profession of medicine.
Submitted by drsamherman on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:13pm.
The Hippocratic Oath (traditional and modern versions) are equally clear about the three pillars of medical ethics, and they apply essentially to all health professions. Sorry to belabor this point, but these pillars are: 1) primum non nocere (do no harm); 2) advance only that which benefits the patient; and 3) respect for fully informed choice by the patient or authorized representative.
The decision from a patient or representative to withhold life-sustaining treatment or therapies is far different than a physician choosing to withhold these treatments. We are required as a matter of professional conduct to offer whatever therapeutic alternatives might be available and to discuss the relative risks versus benefits with the patients or their authorized representatives. If they choose to withhold consent, so be it. We must respect that decision.
All health care institutions are required BY LAW to have ethics committees and to provide for external ethical consultations in end of life decisions. These processes, by design, are not easy to navigate. As a matter of course, terminal patients and their representatives routinely choose to withhold treatment and elect "comfort measures" to ease the end of life. Advanced directives or "living wills" are routinely required by hospitals on admission, and absent these instructions physicians and other health care professionals are REQUIRED to provide all reasonable measures to sustain life.
Providing the means by which a patient may choose to end his or her life is not something that the American health care system is ready to do, nor are most health care professionals willing to participate in such. It goes against our professional DNA as embodied by our professional ethics.
I participate in at least two or three ethics committee meetings or external consults per month in my practice as a neurologist/psychiatrist. It is never easy to tell a patient or family that all that therapeutic options are exhausted, but in the majority of cases we review they are. I personally will not participate in physician-assisted suicide because it goes so deeply against my professional beliefs. I understand why some physicians might do so, but a recommendation to withhold treatment is a very far cry from providing the means to terminate life.
Just my two cents.
Well said, Sam. Without
Submitted by stratman on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:37am.
Well said, Sam.
Without explicit instructions from the patient or legal representative, my DNA is "to always err on the side of life," as the saying goes. Providing the means to commit suicide or being directly involved in the act is not something I'm prepared to do. I also loathe the idea of government involvement in euthanasia, and many medical decision and treatment processes, particularly in light of government as dispenser and determiner of that individual's medical care. Talk about conflict of interest!
Ethics committees I have dealt with have been packed or were entirely Liberal, usually of the flaming effete variety. I do not recall a single time that removal of life support was not recommended. This may, of course, be due to the advanced nature of the cases presented to the committee instead of sociopolitical ideology.
In medical school, my friends and I thought ethics committees were started by institutions in order to inoculate themselves from liability. No doubt some attendings found the external support, or acquiescence of absolute authority, a positive in their lives and practices, while others saw it as an intrusion into their judgement and relationship with patient and family. It is an odd balance at times. Then again, there was always the ability to petition the legal system for a ruling.
I believe the pendulum is swinging further towards those who would provide medication for euthanasia as medical schools stack classes with more ideologically Progressive students. In general, medical schools have been infiltrated by the same Liberal push as other academic institutions. That my medical school class did not want to recite the Hippocratic Oath, with its
Instead, my class opted for Lasagna's version and its Progressive ideals such as
Lasagna's version leaves plenty of room for interpretation on euthanasia (as well as abortion).
We took the old version.
Submitted by drsamherman on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:55pm.
All of the non-clinical faculty at my medical school alma mater graduated around 1910 (BC, I think!) and they absolutely refused to adopt any of the updated versions. I think it was about 1980 when the first modern revisions were voted on by the faculty. It caused more controversy than their discussions about removing cadavers from gross anatomy. When the "new blood" arrived in 1982, the school made a point of sending a communique out to alumni informing them of adoption of one of the earlier revised versions. To this day, I can't understand the waste of postage.
No cadavers? Huh. My once
Submitted by stratman on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 10:14pm.
No cadavers? Huh.
My once standalone school has not only changed its name - from a College to a University (it all comes down to money) - but has been incorporated into the large university in town. I feel like I get mail from a school I did not attend.
Speaking of change, I recently visited my undergraduate school. The science building is now closed, soon to be torn down, and the department is in a new building next door. Only one professor remains on faculty in the biology department from when I attended. Ironically, she was the oldest, or near oldest, in the department when I attended.
I know.
Submitted by drsamherman on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 11:17pm.
The no-cadavers thing threw me for a loop. How in the world can you learn about the actual anatomy of the human body unless you see one up close and personal? Ultimately, the politically correct faction of the faculty that proposed the no-cadaver class got shot down badly. Being a lowly adjunct, I had no vote, but it was reported out that the vote went against the no-cadaver cadre by 5% for, 95% against.
I went to a large, university-incorporated medical school. It acted like it was not part of the university, but it sure charged like it was. Undergrad campus does not even look familiar to me. All of the older, beautiful buildings torn down or surrounded by awful, soulless modern architecture. Looks more like a chemical refinery than an institution of higher education.
All of the letters I receive have the same point: send money we're poor. Funny how they boast about having a record year for research funding and then complain about poverty on the other hand.
Mixed Feelings
Submitted by Chris Norman on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:33pm.
I have mixed feelings about this debate. As someone who had suicides attempts in his family, I have an inherent and total opposition to it. On the other hand, I don't want to see any person suffer. On the other hand, I see a slippery slope ahead once assisted suicide becomes acceptable. In this case, I'll have to go with my gut reaction - Dr. Kevorkian struck me as a morbid creep who gave me the creeps.
It's one thing to let a
Submitted by lotr on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:42pm.
It's one thing to let a terminal patient die (rather than use Draconian life support), especially when they are suffering.
It's another thing altogether for a "physician" to intentionally assist his patient commit suicide.
If somebody were about to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge, citing the fact that she "can't take it any more" (emotional suffering, by some accounts, can be worse than physical suffering), do you think it's "humane" to push her over the side?
No. And like I said, I've had
Submitted by Chris Norman on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:06pm.
No. And like I said, I've had first hand experience with suicide attempts in my own family, so I'm not talking hypothetically when discussing this. I know the guilt and anguish suicide can cause in families. If I say that I don't want to see people suffer, I'm not glibly musing over the alternative to that. When I say I have mixed feelings on the subject, I say so in a deliberate way. I thought I made it clear that I found Kevorkian to be a morbid figure and his "remedies" to be the top of a slippery slope. As I can't be any clearer, I won't engage in any further debate or discussion.
Nice
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:42am.
VERY well put, Chris. I wonder if people understand why it is that the Netherlands permitted euthanasia?
The problem I have with it is that once you empower doctors with the ability to put people to sleep like dogs, all it is going to take is for one or two whacko doctors to start killing people for fun or whatever nefarious reasons to show just how horrifying this idea is.
Or, for another example, what about cases where the family gets involved due to inheritance issues? I can see cases where some family members are egging along their own blood relatives to kill themselves so that the can get some inheritance money, land, or whatever.
The idea of permitting doctors to whack people is therefore problematic for me. If people want to kill themselves, they already can.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
I have heard a lot of talk ...
Submitted by NL207 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:00am.
about the Netherlands assisted suicide law from folks in Ostfriesland, the German Landkreis [County] along the Ems River just opposite the Netherlands. People there have many contacts on the Dutch side of the river and the common wisdom there is that roughly half of the "assisted suicides" that take place in the Netherlands are simply murders. The old people think this is Nazism rearing its ugly head yet again. They are getting get idea from the local newspapers in that area, Emder Zeitung from Emden, Osnabruecker Zeitung published in Osnabruck, and Nordwest Zeitung which is published in nearby Oldenberg..
"reported that approximately 2,700 deaths are caused each year in the Netherlands by either euthanasia or assisted suicide—approximately 3 percent of all Dutch deaths."
Thanks for that post. If
Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:29pm.
Thanks for that post.
If you are getting weaker, pushed around by your kids, and disrespected, you could even be manipulated into "wanting to do it," even when you don't want to. Then if that didn't work, the kids would take it into their "own hands." Just horrible to think about. Corrupt people but all too common. The same "sort" of person also robs and kills the 7-11 guy or pizza guy for $20. When millions $ are involved, even worse can come out in greedy & spoiled people.
-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.
The other side of the coin.
Submitted by mandrake on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 6:26pm.
You said
"If you are getting weaker, pushed around by your kids, and disrespected, you could even be manipulated into "wanting to do it," even when you don't want to. "
What if your kids wanted you to stick around because they believed in something so foolish as love. But you being more realistic simply want'd to die.
Well...
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 8:31pm.
Good news, mandrake! You can WILL yourself to die. Bad news: you STILL will not "die with dignity", as death with dignity is IMPOSSIBLE.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Really?
Submitted by mandrake on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 6:39am.
"death with dignity is IMPOSSIBLE"
Try telling that to a soldier, or my dad. And BTW, are you stalking me? You seem to show up everywhere I post. I'm flattered..love and kisses..
-mandrake
Hate to burst your bubble, but...
Submitted by Unsane on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:29am.
Actually, having been in a combat zone, serving my country, I need not ask a soldier. There can be absolutely no death with dignity. Period. It is clear to me that those who cling so desperately to the idea that death can be dignified have never encountered death up close. Or, they just see the corpse in the funeral home and think that it is possible. They never think that they just might be looking at what is for all intents and purposes a doll.
I USED to think there was death with dignity. Then I became a volunteer firefighter. That changed my tune fast.
Stalking you? Nah. I just respond to your usual inane comments. If you don't want me responding, all you need to do is to start talking sense, or just stop posting on NB altogether.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Hate to call you a jackass but..
Submitted by mandrake on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 12:56pm.
I misspoke. I meant to say, try saying that the FAMILY of a dead soldier. (the dignity thing). Anyway, my dad died in his sleep..I was there..he never complained or whined..he died with diginity..so go away . You are starting to live up to your name UNSANE.
Call me all the names you want
Submitted by Unsane on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 1:24pm.
I am deeply touched by you questioning my sanity.
I'm not going anywhere. The last thing a whining, sniveling little Socialist like you is going to do is bark orders at me. I WILL respond to you whenever I like and say what I damn well please, as long as NB tolerates me. If that bothers you, leave NB right now.
Absolutely, positively no one dies with dignity. Believe that such a thing happens if it makes you feel good about yourself, but it doesn't happen. I fail to see what is so dignified of losing control of one's bodily functions, among many other things. You do not enter the world in a dignified fashion, and no one leaves in a dignified fashion. Dignity is a luxury for the living, and the living only.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
good points, unsane
Submitted by lotr on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 1:09pm.
And FWIW... Employing a "physician" to apply medical knowledge to cause death (instead of protect life) is anything but "dignified."
Unsane is absolutely,---
Submitted by matthewdean on Mon, 06/06/2011 - 3:29am.
positively, correct.
For any and all who choose to believe differently as a way to assuage the death of a loved one, I understand.
However, the emotional thoughts used by an individual to prepare themselves for the magic carpet ride into oblivion about to be taken by that loved one, will in no way obviate the undignified physical ramifications of death.
MD
high tech Nazism
Submitted by lotr on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:47pm.
...incognito, under the guise of "compassion."
Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” -- Gen 3:1
A Martyr???
Submitted by wingnut55 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:40pm.
Jack Kevorkian is as much a martyr as the Boston Strangler or any other serial killer. He preyed on the sick and hurting and enjoyed killing people. We let him out of prison June 1, 2007 because he was dying. What took him so long? I would like to see an investigation of his medical practice. Let's see how many people died under his "tender care". He is, now finding out what real suffering is in Hell.
Bingo!
Submitted by lotr on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 10:49pm.
I'm sure they consider him "a martyr" in Hell.
Now you're God, the judger of
Submitted by Anniee451 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:27pm.
Now you're God, the judger of men'[s hearts? What do you know about what someone "enjoyed"? And if he enjoyed it so much, why was it a relatively small number of people, all of whom were in the critical stages of dying in grave pain?
Unreal. The arrogance of the judgment is sickening.
I could never be God
Submitted by wingnut55 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:01am.
I am not judging him, only observing his actions. You seem to find my statements sickening, but not the killing of hurting and helpless people. To me that is the act of playing god, anniee. God will be the final Judge. Jack Kevorkian showed no sign of accepting Jesus as his Savior and so I say based on the Bible he is in Hell finding what true suffering is.
Kevorkian and Mengele
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:48am.
Anniee is yet another person who sees life as extraordinarily cheap; something that should be ended as unceremoniously as taking out the garbage.
You, and others on NB may remember that back in 2002 there was a 60 Minutes program which showed Dr. Kevorkian killing people. Anniee, I encourage you to watch it, because there was nothing humane in what he was doing. In fact, the most disturbing thing about it was that Dr. Kevorkian looked like he was having the time of his life. I would dare say it looked like in places that he was about to experience an orgasm on the air. He was enjoying killing people. I get the sense that if he were ever to have met Josef Mengele, those two would have much to discuss, in a gleeful, animated conversation. Both surely had one thing in common even if their motivations differed - both enjoyed killing people to an extreme degree.
What is unreal is your rushing to the defense of a murderer.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Typical
Submitted by Anniee451 on Fri, 06/03/2011 - 11:16pm.
I think it's all the people screaming "cheap view of life" that have a cheap view. Too cheap to put any real thought into it. The closest anyone came was the fact that Obamacare and other socialist programs will end up with a "duty to die" - which of course makes socialism the problem, not voluntary end-of-life issues. I don't think he was a hero, but neither was he some filthy bloody murderer.
It's really no one's business if I need to check out - I'll face God on my own same as we all do. For another person to tell me I can't control my own life and destiny is absurd. Yes, I'm libertarian and not a bit sorry for it.
To the person who said two valiums and a shot? Don't make me laugh until I puke fgs - two valiums and a shot won't even make me yawn. Add in the added immunity to morphine-based painkillers that's likely at that stage, and you could add a few Oxycontin to the mix and still nothing. Do you really think the body is that weak? Heh. My state has the most restrictive gun laws of pretty much anywhere - it's damn near impossible to get one. How someone would get it into a hospital I have no idea. But it's stupid. Couldn't jump off a bridge at that stage...wouldn't have the strength or ability. Wow, such compassion. When you're begging for the sweet release of death, I hope no one listens to you.
Hey Anniee...
Submitted by beauxdog on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:41am.
That was my Obamacare joke... but I wasn't suggesting that just Obamacare would bring in the DUTY to die. Human nature, by itself, is quite capable as well. The first suicide is horrifying... the next not as much... down the line, it gets to be old hat. A fresh school shooting today doesn't have the same impact that Columbine did. We get use to things.
That is why I say "no man is an island". Today, it was humane for Tom to kill himself to stop the suffering from terminal cancer. Tomorrow, Jack will be expected to do the same thing even though he only has a hang nail. After all, he doesn't want to be a burden to his family.
Celebrating death
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:57am.
Anniee, it sounds like you think breathing is too much a burden for you. The 'sweet release of death'? I think you need professional help far beyond my abilities. If you were to go kill yourself right now, I couldn't stop you, and you are right, it wouldn't be my business. Having trouble getting a gun because of the state you are in? Go to a state where you CAN get a gun. Better yet, have a relative bring you a gun or buy one yourself illegally and then off yourself. What are the cops going to do then? Throw your corpse into a jail cell for violating gun laws?
But you make it my business when you suggest empowering those with the ability to heal others with the capacity for killing people. You celebrate and revel in murder but rest assured I do not. Thus I prefer to leave that door firmly closed. Besides, if I want to die - fat chance - I can take care of that right here at home with very little effort.
Thanks for showing me yet again how screwed up and warped all too many libertarians are.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Compassion and dignity
Submitted by CobraMan on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:43am.
Ever hear of a morphine overdose? I have. It's what my family used to end the suffering of my step-father when he was dying. You see, my step-father was in the terminal stage of life. He was in pain, unable to walk, barely able to breath, and we all knew that he was dying. We brought him home, under home hospice care, so that he could die with dignity, surrounded by the people he loved and whom loved him in return.
The doctor had given us plenty of morphine, because Les, my step-father, was in excruciating pain. We gave Les morphine orally, several times a day. When he could no longer speak above a whisper, when we knew that he was going to die very soon, we administered what was actually lethal doses of morphine. He fell asleep and never regained consciousness. He died without further suffering, surrounded by his loved ones, just as he had requested. Even though, as one of the people who administered lethal doses of morphine, I am, in the eyes of the law, a murderer, I am glad I did what I did.
Les died with dignity, and for that I am grateful. If I am punished for this, for what I did is considered manslaughter at the very least, so be it. I will accept any punishment for my actions, as any responsible adult would do.
Am I a hero for this? No, I don't think that I am. But I do believe what I did was compassionate, for all our sakes.
Am I a Savior for this? Not even close!
And, when I die, will I become a Martyr for this? NO! Not even if I was arrested for murder and died in prison.
Kevorkian wasn't compassionate. He was, in every sense of the word, a monster. He designed equipment that would, coldly and without compassion, allow someone to take their own life. He didn't do this out of compassion, for leaving someone to die by their own hand is not compassionate. He did this so he could justify his believes in euthanasia as a medical "treatment." He said as much time and time again. He fed upon people's fear. He used their pain and suffering, their confusion, to achieve HIS goal of euthanasia.
Kevorkian didn't even want to accept the responsibility for his own actions. He tried to justify his actions as "compassionate" in an attempt to forgo any responsibility. He refused to accept responsibility altogether. He actually designed the machine in such a way as to attempt to preclude responsibility by himself. After all, HE didn't initiate the actual suicide process, he left before that process started. That's not compassion. That's cowardice.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
Tip
Submitted by Boudin on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 12:25am.
There is no arguing with the immoral
Did anyone notice that the only people
Submitted by djwolf12 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 12:29am.
who care about and are publicly mourning that room-temperature piece of crap Kavorkian are LIBERALS? The same liberals that care about the execution of innocent children from scumbags like Dr. Tiller? Also, I think that Kavorkian was a coward to not wrap his lips around the exhaust pipe of a 1972 Ford Pinto or go jump off the tallest building in Michigan, or assist himself in a new bizarre way to really show how creative he could be. Instead, he chose to go out in a Hospital bed. Way to go, Jack!!!!
A "True Hero"?
Submitted by Boil It Down on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 4:00am.
"Doctor Death" will be a hero? You don't get a widely used nickname like that when most people admire you. I'd bet most of the nation thinks of him as a cold blooded killer now, what's gonna change? I'd guess about .01% of the population might consider him a hero. That's just my opinion. -bidn-
lotr said-"It's one thing to
Submitted by Pinetree3 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:26am.
lotr said-"It's one thing to let a terminal patient die (rather than use Draconian life support), especially when they are suffering.
It's another thing altogether for a "physician" to intentionally assist his patient commit suicide."
Fair point. But if a patient knows they can stay alive with the use of draconian life support but choose not to use it, are`nt they in effect still committing suicide? Complex issue.
complex perhaps, but still solvable
Submitted by lotr on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:09pm.
Fair question.
To answer it, one must distinguish between removing an artificial life support system from a terminal patient, and intentionally and actively stopping the heart of a non-terminal, functioning patient who is suicidal (suicidal because of suffering).
The former compassionately (breaking the word into its components, "com-passion-ately") allows for a natural (or, for the theist, a God-ordained) death; the latter is the equivalent of taking a suicidal person (again, by many accounts, emotional pain can be worse than physical pain) to the Golden Gate Bridge and pushing them off the side.
Perhaps euthanasia will become a widespread reality in the USA one day (much like abortion is). But that doesn't make it right.
Food for thought
Submitted by Unsane on Sun, 06/05/2011 - 8:31am.
James Michener was on dialysis and got so sick of it one day, he decided to quit. Within weeks of that decision, he died. This was back in October 1997. Not exactly draconian life support but you get the point...
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
"To the person who said two
Submitted by Pinetree3 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:35am.
"To the person who said two valiums and a shot? Don't make me laugh until I puke fgs - two valiums and a shot won't even make me yawn. Add in the added immunity to morphine-based painkillers that's likely at that stage, and you could add a few Oxycontin to the mix and still nothing."
Exactly. There are cases in which the pain is so severe that pain killers are virtually useless.
RIP Dr. Kevorkian
Submitted by melvin on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 5:37am.
You are a true American hero.
Melvin strikes again
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:00am.
Not surprising that someone as self-absorbed as you would look upon life so cheaply and worship a murderer.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
Kevorkian is no
Submitted by NL207 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 6:12pm.
hero. He is a serial murderer. He has the same moral standing as Ted Bundy.
Glad to see
Submitted by Mazzi on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 7:40am.
I am glad to see that there are others who understand that not all conservatives disagree with a person's right to end their own life. My feeling has always been that it ultimately is between the individual and God. When that individual is standing at the pearly gates, and has to explain why they did it (along with the millions of other questionable things that we all have done), HE will decide if they made the correct choice.
After all, "taking of life" has so many different possibilities. There is killing in war. There is capital punishment. There is negligent homicide. There is convenience killing (abortion). There is straight-up murder. There is the refusal of treatment. There is suicide. And most of these deaths have much deeper implications. Did someone commit suicide because they were depressed, or because they were afraid of the future, or because they knew they were going to die painfully and expensively? Surely, all of us, except the blindly radical, can agree that SOME of these killings are acceptable, or even admirable.
So who's values do we use? Who is the wisest person of all, who makes the decision that "this killing is OK, but THAT one is not"? If you believe in God, no person is wise enough to make that call. As a society it's pretty clear that we can stop people who hurt deliberately others. That is so far to the evil side that there should be no question. Again, if you believe in God, then you have to believe that He will cast His judgment on the rest of us when our time comes.
It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall when Kevorkian hits the gates, though.
Kevorkian is a ....
Submitted by NL207 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 10:36am.
nothing more than a murderer. He has joined Josef Mengele and the others of their persuasion in the bowels of Hell.
Agreed
Submitted by Unsane on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:02am.
It amazes me how many people on this thread are cheering Kevorkian. I never will forget his behavior on 60 Minutes back in 2002.
"CONSUMED DEMOCRACY RETURNS A SOCIALIST REGIME" - Slayer, "Fictional Reality", from Divine Intervention (1994)
As in SNL skit - "could it be Satan?!"
Submitted by MaximusBraveheart on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 1:02pm.
He wants you to live in fear, feel week and worthless and to cut your life short. That is always his goal. If you are not saved, the sooner you die, the sooner your fall in his hands & the chance to repent and be saved is cut off.
This is an interesting point I thought of:
Who knows what all will happen in your last week or days. You may well be in a lot of pain, and may well have a revelation in life!
You lived life your way. You lived on your own terms and were your own god. Now that it is passing, you may well want to seek out redemption in Christ. That is what Jesus promised. Like the thief on the cross with Christ, at first both mocked Christ, but soon the second sought redemption through faith. Christ then said you will be with me in paradise!
Who would not consider that in the end & take him up on it? The pain may serve a good purpose in your life. This may well happen even once you are in some "unconscious" state in the day of your death. Like dreams in sleep, you may turn yourself over at that point.
But if your life is cut short those hours, days, weeks, months, or years, your soul no longer has control over its long term fate. The choice is finished & done. I think that is what Kevorkian was thrilled about. The doctor of death was a agent of what we do call Satan. I think that angels, demons, hell & heaven, God & Satan, are indeed real from what I have seen in life. This World of Earth is in a spiritual battle over the each and every valuable soul of man.
-- Maximusbraveheart -- Is TRUTH knowable? Moral Relativism is the abandonment of Truth. Truth is knowable. Truth conforms to Reality. Reality is observable by evidence & witness in this day & from history. Relativism is Sesame Street play land.
A Savior? A Hero? A Martyr?
Submitted by CobraMan on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:02am.
A Savior? A Hero? A Martyr? I realize that this man was the Dr.'s friend but those labels are rather grandiose.
A Savior? Doubtful, as I don't think he saved a single soul.
A Hero? Not even close! Heroes save lives, they don't end them.
A Martyr? Only if he died by lethal injection!
There are so many people who believe that Kevorkian was a compassionate man, but I don't think he was compassionate at all. If he were a compassionate man, he would have held the hand of the people he helped to kill. He would have stayed with them as they breathed their last breath. But that's not why this man did. He gave people the means to terminate their own life, and then left them. That's the behavior of a cold and heartless man, not a compassionate one.
The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States. The US Constitution
Unless you're a fetus. The US Supreme Court
Or Anwar al-Awlaki.
"Who would not consider that
Submitted by Pinetree3 on Sat, 06/04/2011 - 11:08pm.
"Who would not consider that in the end & take him up on it? The pain may serve a good purpose in your life."
So lets get rid of all pain killers in the hospital. Make the patients REALLY suffer. It`ll be good for them,,,right?