Is a Libyan No-Fly Zone As Difficult As Obama Team Protests It Is? Not Really, Say Former Air Force Brass
Calls for a U.S. or NATO-imposed no-fly zone over Libya to aid the fledgling rebellion against dictator Muammar Qadhafi have been met with protests by Obama administration officials that it is a logistical nightmare requiring careful planning and forethought.
While that's something to that argument, fears of Libya's air force are way overblown, some retired Air Force officers argue, according to Aviation Week's David Fulghum, in his March 8 blog post, "Libyan Air Defenses Would Fade Fast" (emphases mine):
Dominating Libyan airspace would not be a tough or geographically overwhelming task for the U.S. and its allies, say airpower advocates.
Objections to the U.S. establishing a no-fly zone over Libya are based on erroneous suppositions made by leaders in the Pentagon – such as U.S. Central Command chief, Marine Corps Gen. James Mattis – who do not have the aviation experience needed to make such a decision, say two senior, retired U.S. Air Force officers.
There also have been mutterings among aviation advocates that the no-fly zone idea is being downplayed so that budget support for Army and Marine Corps ground forces will not be minimized by some sort of aerial coup. Those opposing the hands-off approach of the U.S. Pentagon are promoting a congressional call-in campaign in support of allied domination of Libyan airspace.
Two points used during congressional hearings to dismiss the value and thoroughness of an aerial blockade are that it would not prevent helicopter flights and that Libya is too large to a space to cover on a 24-hour basis. An informal group of former senior officers have been promoting a call-in campaign to interest high-profile leaders such as Sen. Kerry to quickly conduct more hearings on the feasibility of an air blockade.
Despite statements by the Russians that they would not support any military action against Libya – which would include establishing a no-fly zone – some U.S. officials believe there may be flexibility in Moscow’s position. Britain and France has stated support for the concept.
“I think the U.S. should ask the United Nations Security Council for a resolution and that would force the hand of Russia and China,” said one of the generals. “We also should ask for support from NATO so that the U.S. Air Force could use Italian bases.”
Any attack, the two generals contend, would be far more limited in scope and greater in effect than critics have suggested.
“[Defense Secretary Robert] Gates has said that a no-fly zone can’t stop helicopters,” the first Gen. says “That’s wrong. There are only three places in Libya where helicopters can stage, fuel, rearm and re-equip – one in Tripoli, one in Benghazi and one in the eastern oil fields that are in the hands of the rebels. They are all near the coast. All the rest of Libya is barren.
“The U.S. Air Force has specialized in operations to take down integrated air defense, crater runways and destroy helicopter staging areas,” he says. “We know where they are. You can shoot down low-flying helicopter with Aim-9X Sidewinders. The suppression would take 24-48 hours with assets that aren’t being used for Iraq or Afghanistan. We cleaned out Baghdad in 24-hr. in 1991 and 2003. Libya wouldn’t be that intense. The SA-6 is the best surface to air missile they have and the old F-1 Mirages are the best fighter.”
To date the media have dutifully recorded and passed along the objections of Obama administration officials about both the logistical and geopolitical headaches involved with imposing a no-fly zone over a sovereign country without UN authorization. If the analysis of these former Air Force officers is correct, the former are not really an issue and its more a matter of the Obama team's political resolve to act, even if doing so requires short-circuiting the UN in favor of a "coalition of the willing" to borrow a phrase from the George W. Bush administration.
At any rate, it would behoove the media to examine if the Obama administration and the Pentagon are being far too cautious from a military standpoint when it comes to assertively dealing with Qadhafi, a known sponsor of terrorism with American blood on his hands.
- Ken Shepherd's blog
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Comments
Why they really say it
Submitted by jon_torlin on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 1:33pm.
Given this bogus administration's penchant for exaggeration, I'm not surprised they would take this approach about the "no-fly zone." We already know that they would do everything in their power to delay any sort of military action and claim it's difficult, it's impossible, yadda yadda. Hell, look at the lack of reaction on the part of the Navy (on orders from WH) to the Merchant vessel captain that got taken hostage and other incidents.
So saying that a no-fly zone is a problem isn't a surprise from these folks.
-Jon
All the useless one needs to
Submitted by Miss_Me_Yet on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 1:55pm.
All the useless one needs to do is find an ex Libyan army sharp shooter, offer him a million bucks and send him to Tripoli with a high powered rifle and two bullets. Quadafi the gadfly walks around, right out in the open all day long, because he really believes his people still love him. That's all it would take, no big planning, or covert ops involved. One Libyan patriot, one rifle, one dead madman.....end of story.Liberals ... we can't live with them, they couldn't survive without us ...
You send in the Air Force,
Submitted by ricklail on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 1:55pm.
You seed in the Air Force, Navy and Marines. They take out the radar and air defense systems-about a day's jobs. Then they take out all of their planes-maybe half a day. Then the Navy starts flying patrols. Is that so hard to understand. It does take planning and manpower but it can be done. If we did it we could probably get help from our British cousins. I would consider an operation like that just intensified training for our folks.Lybia is not important here.
Submitted by bassndude on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:01pm.
Lybia is not important here. Weather on not a no fly zone is a problem, Lybia is of no stragic importance. The oil production from there in minimal and not critical to world or national supply. I am not in favor of interfearing in Lybia. Leave them to sort it out. If we go in it will be the same a Iraq. They wanted us in there badly untill Saddam was hung, now they cant get rid of us soon enough. Let the Lybians rot in their own sandbox.Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
I agree with you somehat. i
Submitted by ricklail on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:17pm.
I agree with you somewhat. I feel it would be great training with little danger. I also agree with Miss_me. One sniper armed with the Barrett .50 could take care of the problem. One shot, one kill.Ricklail, why on earth would
Submitted by bassndude on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 4:27pm.
Ricklail, why on earth would we want to send in a sniper to take out a dictator? In Lybia none the less? Lybia produces about 1.8 million barrels of oil a day, I think a little less than that now. Why put Americans in harms way in a flea infested sand pit? Again? Those people in the ME have been at war with each other sence 700AD. I say, so long as they leave Israel alone, we let them kill each other off. If one country or the other attacks Israel, then we simply use excessive force on that country. Daisy cutters on the capitals untill its gone, then go to work on their armies.Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
we must not get involved in Libya-
Submitted by JIMMY1660 on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:13pm.
we will do a half-A$$ed job-and make both sides hate us more. Stay out-let them kill one another.Damned Right
Submitted by JustAl on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 3:01pm.
Stay out of it, we've proven twice since 9/11 that we are incapable of using the military to advance our national interests. We aren't even "rent a cops", they get paid! My son is getting ready to deploy again and for what? A bunch of crooks in DC sucking up to crooks in Kabul who together write ROE's to get him killed? Enough. Let them kill each other, if we can get cash in advance sell ammo to both sides.The 22nd MEU out of Camp
Submitted by ricklail on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 4:21pm.
The 22nd MEU out of Camp Lejuene is preparing for deployment to the Med in April. They just returned from Haiti. To the shores of Tripolli? http://www.jdnews.com/news/22nd-88667-camp-heads.html What is wrong with this thing. I can't put a link in.I would prefer backing the current Libyan No-Eat Zone,
Submitted by SickofLibs on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:21pm.
which the Bedouin Liberace has foisted on his fellow citizens. I don't want to see one American life put in potential jeopardy (with the possible exception of Brian Williams)Obama as CiC, What a crock....L@@K Obama is once again present.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:21pm.
Luck is shinning again on Obama's hand sitting.
Libya's air force, is almost out of fuel and parts and no way to get any more.
Wait a month and send in a small fleet of UAV's they can accomplish a no fly zone, whacking an arrant fuel truck and or rusting aircraft sitting in the hot sun.
You Didn't Build That.
This man has gone through his whole life...
Submitted by PrairieSky on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:39pm.
it seems, voting present...Obama avoids making the hard decisions whenever possible, and staffs out the dirty work to others (he handed off crafting Obamacare to Pelosi, Reid and Co.). He's a pathetic excuse for a leader...He isn't now, never has been and never will be. With every passing day, Obama re-confirms that he's just not up to the job."Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction...It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them (our children) to do the same." ~President Ronald Reagan
Sky, Looks like the USA will take a back seat.
Submitted by upcountrywater on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 2:52pm.
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton made it clear, however, that imposing a no-fly zone is a matter for the United Nations and should not be a U.S.-led initiative.
You Didn't Build That.
Fine by me, actually
Submitted by Blonde on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 3:10pm.
Let the Europeans do it....Libya is far more in their national interest (and the majority of Libyan oil is shipped to them). The Brits, French, and Germans all have quite adequate air forces to do the job. We can lend them nominal support in the way of AWACS and whatnot. But let them do the heavy lifting.Handy Reference Guide to Obama's Gaffes and Goofs ~ Currently Numbering 200 (and Counting)
I have mixed...
Submitted by PrairieSky on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 3:18pm.
emotions about this whole thing. My instincts say that we should stay out of this, and let it play itself out, and if it is decided that something on a military level needs to be done, that the UN should be the one to handle it. On the other hand, I'm concerned about Libya's oil reserves and what that will mean to us if something catastrophic were to happen concerning that. Also, the UN does not have a good track record involving themselves in similar problems. I'm also concerned that a radical Islamist element may try to move into Libya and take over in the vacuum that will be left following Qadhafi's departure (whenever that will be).
I think a no-fly zone is a good idea, but I'm not thrilled about us being the ones to decide to do it, and to carry it out. We've got our hands full right now, and I'm not certain of the wisdom of us getting too involved in this.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction...It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them (our children) to do the same." ~President Ronald Reagan
I worry that if Qadhafi
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 3:45pm.
I worry that if Qadhafi survives this rebellion and brutally represses the opposition that it will make Obama and by extension the U.S. look incredibly weak and feckless and unable to handle international crises. This will embolden our enemies and threaten the safety and security of our interest around the globe. Obama is incredibly worried about being perceived as too interventionist or as pulling the strings in Muslim countries, interfering unduly in their domestic affairs and hence feeding into terrorist propaganda. There's something to be said for that concern, but you can't let it dominate our foreign policy in the MidEast and north Africa.Ken...Well said...
Submitted by PrairieSky on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 4:39pm.
To be honest, I haven't really seriously considered Qadhafi's surviving this rebellion as a plausible scenario. I have assumed that he will not. If he does, I think your worries are certainly legitimate, and make sense. And to be fair to Obama, he (or any other president in this situation) is really in a very difficult situation here...No matter what he does, or doesn't do, there are potentially damaging repercussions. If he intervenes militarily, as you said, it could well be seen as being too interventionist...If he does not, he risks being perceived as being weak and ineffectual. It is a mess. That said, Obama's apparent indecisiveness on how to handle this situation also makes him appear weak. His rhetoric on this has been confusing and somewhat disjointed. He must settle on a course of action, and follow it...In other words, he must lead.
I do also think, that as president of the US, he should worry a bit less about potentially feeding terrorist propaganda if he were to intervene in some way...The terrorists are going to blame us and rail at us no matter what...They do not need any encouragement, real or perceived, to accuse the US for anything. If Obama feels, after weighing all the factors, that intervening in Libya in some concrete, possibly military fashion is the right thing to do for our interests, then that is what he should do. As I stated earlier, I remain concerned about us being the ones to run the show in this. There are no easy answers here. One thing is certain...Qadhafi needs to go. How he goes and by whose hand is what is problematic.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction...It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them (our children) to do the same." ~President Ronald Reagan
Ken, with all due respect, at
Submitted by bassndude on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 4:33pm.
Ken, with all due respect, at this point the US is weak and feckless and very inept in an international cirses. Demonstrated during the Egypt fiasco. The ROE emposed on our troops are brutal and getting them killed on a daily basis. If we get involved in Lybia at this point, it will only serve to reinforce the image of the US as weak. So long as Obama is in that office, we have no business even being off shore.Save a SeAL, club a liberal/troll!!
An Act of War
Submitted by IrateNate on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 8:31pm.
No Fly Zone? When will we learn? Regardless of intentions, any actions against Libya would constitute a blatant act of war. Any wagers on how the rest of the Arab world would perceive this? It is high time we realize that the US is no longer Policeman of the World. Whatever goes down in Libya is their business - not ours, no matter how bat-sh!t crazy their leader might be. If the fighting spills across international borders, then it becomes a matter for NATO, the UN, and the other spineless twits who depend on the US to fight their battles, then complain how we went about it. At that point, we may find ourselves involved. But, until it does, we need to stay the hell out of there.I respect that argument,
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 10:53pm.
I respect that argument, although Qadhafi almost certainly green-lighted the Lockerbie bombing and definitely authorized the dance hall bombing in West Germany in 1986 that resulted in American deaths. So I think there's legitimate grounds for us to engage in an act of war in this manner.Except the US brokered a deal
Submitted by astonrickenbach on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 11:38pm.
Except the US brokered a deal for restitution to be paid to the families in 2003 and then allowed Libya to become part of the international community again.What does that have to do with the price of gas in China?
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 03/10/2011 - 2:18am.
The deal was between Libya and the victim's families. Why would you even bring this up? Why? For what valid reason, what pertinent reason, why, why would you bring that up?
Why? Is there something pathological in you that you would bring that up?
Oh I get it.
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 03/10/2011 - 3:16am.
Murder is OKEYDOKEY with ashtonkutchersbutt as long as the victim's families are paid off.
So really, anything is pretty much OK with ashtonkutchersbutt as long as there is some kind of payday. So I can say astonrickenbach is a milquetoasty little circus freak that will bite the head off a live chicken and then molest the carcass for 2 bits and a bottle of MD 20/20 in his show 4 times a day.
Oh was that hurtful? Here. (flick) Here is 2 bits. The bottle is over there in the corner. Consider yourself paid off. Looks like I am untouchable.
I felt the same way when
Submitted by Ken Shepherd on Wed, 03/09/2011 - 10:55pm.
I felt the same way when Clinton violated international law to start a war over Kosovo in 1999, hijacking NATO for offensive purposes when it is supposed to be a purely defense alliance. But now that we have the Kosovo precedent, it's oddly hypocritical to see the stance of Obama and Clinton on this when it comes to Libya, a country with much more at stake for us strategically than Bosnia ever was.Oddly Hypocritical?
Submitted by JustAl on Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:21am.
Just this week one of the muslims Billy Bob protected in Kosovo murdered two US airmen in Germany. Let them kill each other for as long as they want to. The whole country isn't worth one US life (just as Bosnia wasn't).AN ACT OF WAR!?!?!?
Submitted by Sua Sponte on Thu, 03/10/2011 - 10:10am.
We have been in War for quite a while now...problem is, we don't have (and have not had one for a LONG time) a LEADER/COMMANDER that will make the hard choices neccessary for US to win. Instead, we are stuck with a community organizer whose only choice on matters is to be present unless it would further the socialist agenda. The world is not a community that will look out for each others interest. it is lead by people/governments that have self interests and all want what is best for their own and want to impose their ideas on all. THANK GOD, I live in a society where (for the most part) I can go/talk/do as I please. Where my success is based on MY OWN determination and sacrifice and not determined by some group that want to force me to share my reward for hard work with the "less fortunate" and call it "social justice". But all is changing...and not for better. It's easy to be complacent and let some one else (government) take care of my problems/responsibilities.We did not need U.N approval in 1986
Submitted by The Vet on Thu, 03/10/2011 - 2:11am.
We Don't Need U.N. Approval to Save Libyan Lives By
JOHN YOO
~
Thankfully, the U.S. has not waited in the past for the Security Council's permission to protect our national interests. The U.S. acted with the council's blessing in Korea in 1950 (thanks to a Soviet boycott of the vote), the 1991 Gulf War, Somalia and Haiti, but we would have intervened even without it. We didn't seek approval during the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Vietnam War, interventions in Central America, Grenada, Libya (1986), Panama or Kosovo. President Bush did seek U.N. approval in the months before the 2003 invasion of Iraq—and international lawyers have argued over whether U.N. resolutions from the first Gulf War or 2002 requiring Iraq to eliminate its WMD program justified the invasion—but the Security Council never explicitly authorized the invasion.
~
It should come as no surprise that an administration dominated by academic thinking on Iraq is making a fetish of international law in Libya. This pious elevation of international law over American national interests means that more innocent civilians will die and authoritarian regimes will last longer. A better way, consistent with the traditions of U.S. foreign policy, would spread democracy and capitalism to critical regions like the oil-rich Middle East. This is not some moralistic, Wilsonian conceit. Democracies tend not to go to war with each other, and they share a common interest in recognizing individual liberty. By putting aside the U.N.'s antiquated rules, the United States can save lives, improve global welfare, and serve its own national interests at the same time.