A liberal Catholic blogger who last November inveighed against "extremist" and "Pharasaic" bishops who have said they will deny Communion to pro-choice politicians is cited today by Dallas Morning News religion blogger Bruce Tomaso as an "abortion foe" who, surprise, surprise, has unkind words for the March for Life:
Writing for a blog of America, the Jesuit magazine, Catholic author and "pro-life American" Sean Michael Winters says the annual March for Life -- held last Thursday, on the anniversary of Roe vs. Wade -- "has failed utterly to make a difference in this nation's abortion policy."
The mass protest, he says, "probably alienates the very people we should be trying to reach: women facing crisis pregnancies." The marchers' rhetoric tends "to equate abortion with murder which may be objectively true but also lacks the empathy with the desperate circumstance of many women that is the necessary precursor to an effective evangelization of the Gospel of Life."
Tomaso, you may recall, recently lamented that the pro-life CatholicVote.com group "exploited" Barack Obama's life story to make a pro-life point in a short televised ad.
As for his part as an "abortion foe," the liberal Winters certainly has shown a penchant for criticizing more strident foes of the slaughter of the unborn, such as bishops in his own church. From a November 19 blog post at America magazine's Web site (emphasis mine):
Story Continues Below Ad ↓To be clear: All bishops are opposed to abortion. That is not the issue. At issue is how the bishops should conduct themselves in the public square. Bishops hate to disagree in public so you are not likely to hear more moderate bishops publicly say what must be said. But, yesterday a Vatican source said it on background and pointed out that I can say it in the light of day: These bishops who want to turn the altar rail into a battlefront in the culture wars, these clergy who wish to drag the Church's teaching into the partisan arena, these prelates who believe that their approach to a complicated legal issue is the only approach, they are extremists and they are a minority within the hierarchy. They stand outside our American traditions of political behavior and outside our Catholic traditions of episcopal governance. They are Pharasaic in their skimpy appraisal of the super-abundance of God's mercy and delusional in their assessment of the political landscape.
—Ken Shepherd is Managing Editor of NewsBusters




















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Comments Policy
Methinks they doth protest
January 26, 2009 - 13:52 ET by QueenMumMethinks they doth protest too much. Why are these pro-choicers so afraid of the Catholic Church? If they don't wish to accept the teachings of the Church, then they're free to go elsewhere
This is my favorite statement:
"The marchers' rhetoric tends "to equate abortion with murder which may
be objectively true but also lacks the empathy with the desperate
circumstance of many women that is the necessary precursor to an
effective evangelization of the Gospel of Life."
Pure situational ethics. Evidently murder is an acceptable "choice" if one can generate enough sympathy for one's personal situation. Sorry, but this doesn't jive with the what the Catholic Church teaches. The Catholic Church shows its "empathy with desperate circumstances" by encouraging care and support for the pregnant woman and the option to provide for adoption.
How can anyone oppose a march that promotes protecting life?
Hello Queen Mum
January 26, 2009 - 14:30 ET by cocodrieI agree. I have always proud of the Catholic Church's stand on the sanctity of life.
My wife got in trouble for refusing to teach situation ethics in high school. Carried to its logical conclusion situation ethics allows person A to do ANYTHING to person B as long as person A thinks it's OK.
Liberalism and moral absolutes don't mix. There also is NO tolerance in liberalism.
Jesus Loves You
QM, apparently Michael Sean
January 26, 2009 - 16:55 ET by motherbeltQM, apparently Michael Sean Winters is the kind of Catholic Slate likes....he also wrote an article for them called The Stupidity of Banning Gay Priests.
And he uses the same reasoning: that it would drive the issue underground.
As for his claim that the March does no good, so what?
It's a matter of principle, to protest the killing of the unborn.
If abortion is made illegal...
January 26, 2009 - 13:54 ET byPlease clarify for me the following question...
If abortion is made illegal, what penalties should the women, who had the abortions, receive?
Odd Job
→ Better yet, OddJob
January 26, 2009 - 13:57 ET by Cool ArrowLet's just start by getting it out of the cost of healthcare, both public and private.
I don't see a whole lot of doctors killing kids for free.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
What penalties for the former mothers?
January 26, 2009 - 14:27 ET byCoolArrow,
Your response does not answer the question. I didn't ask about the doctors performing the abortions.
The question is about the mothers.
Take the the doctor out of the equation.
What penalties should the mothers, who had an illegal abortion, receive?
Conspiracy to commit murder? Accessory to a murder? Premediated murder? Killing an innocent infant...those are serious charges...with penalties as severe as the death penalty.
Odd Job
→ OddJob
January 26, 2009 - 14:32 ET by Cool ArrowMy response answers the question for me right now.
I went straight for the pocketbook, and you didn't like it.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
What's not to like?
January 26, 2009 - 15:07 ET byCoolArrow,
Going for the pocketbook was not and still is not part of the question. You included it as a distraction or deflection to the question.
Your response could have been...
"I don't know."
I still have not seen anyone answer the question...
What penalties should a mother, who has had an illegal abortion, receive?
If all of you are adamant anti-abortionists, why is this question so hard to answer?
Odd Job
→ OJ
January 26, 2009 - 15:13 ET by Cool ArrowHaving lived some years before Roe v Wade, I don't remember a case of a woman being prosecuted for what you're advocating.
The big explosion in abortions occurred when doctors were freed to perform the procedure. It's big bucks,
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
OddJob
January 26, 2009 - 15:25 ET by cocodrieProsecuting women is NOT the goal. Preventing the killing of unborn babies is the goal.
Do you hate your mother for allowing you to be born? If not, why don't you want babies to be born alive?
Jesus Loves You
The mother is involved...
January 26, 2009 - 15:33 ET byCocodrie,
...she is an accessory to the murder of her infant. She decided to have the abortion of her unborn infant- premeditation. She hired someone to help her murder her unborn infant- conspiracy. She is an accomplice to the murder of her infant. She is now a murderer. What do you do with a person who has conspired and committed a premeditated murder of an infant?
If you make abortion illegal, why not prosecute the woman who perpetuated the crime?
Odd Job
→ Lead the way OJ
January 26, 2009 - 15:38 ET by Cool ArrowYou're already condemning them. I think you're getting all excited about your hypothetical before we even get it criminalized.
But I'm with you. I believe, as you have admitted, it's murder.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
OddJob
January 26, 2009 - 15:45 ET by cocodrieYou should be prosecuted for hate crimes against babies.
Why do you want them dead?
Jesus Loves You
I'll answer that one
January 26, 2009 - 16:10 ET by choselife3xThe penalty for murdering an unborn child should be the same as that for murdering one who was born. For both the mother, and the accessory.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
There you go...
January 26, 2009 - 16:35 ET byChooselife3x,
You had no problem in answering the question, while most everyone else squirmed. Good for you. I have many questions for you...I'm sure the others can sit down on the sidelines and interject when they feel like it.
Chooselife3x- Eye for an eye? The woman's life should be destroyed by the State, which you support, indirectly, you believe in murdering a human just like the woman you judged to be a murderer of the infant?...hmmm...by the way, the Catholic Church is a firm opponent of the death penalty. Unless, you think she should rot away in prison for the rest of her life? Not very Christian-like...judging someone.
Many more to come...
I'll check back, tomorrow...looking forward to an enlightening discussion!
Odd Job
Why wait till tomorrow?
January 27, 2009 - 16:38 ET by choselife3xIn an abortion, the mother requests to have the baby murdered and the body disposed of by a third party. The person who kills the baby should be prosecuted for murder, and the mother for conspiracy to commit murder, and accessory to murder.
I think the death penalty for a person who rips a baby from the womb is a great idea.
Your turn.
P.S. I'm not Catholic. Not even close. (Not that there's anything wrong with that :-O)
P.P.S. PM me when you answer this so I don't miss it.
Also, mc83 brought up the issue of women who are 'forced' into abortions by the father/family. This is a separate issue from what I am talking about, which is a woman who voluntarily seeks an abortion.
Guess Odd Job didn't really want to talk.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Odd Job
January 27, 2009 - 22:11 ET by choselife3xI just meant PM me to let me know when you answered. Can you post your response here for me to answer, or on the new thread that deals with abortion? It's a pain to switch back and forth between my e-mail screen and this one. Also, this thread is getting rather large to load up on my BlackBerry.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Oddjob, while I am against
January 26, 2009 - 16:45 ET by motherbeltOddjob, while I am against abortion, I also realize that we do not have the resources to find and prosecute every case of abortion. The fact that it was illegal would undoubtedly reduce the number. One can't make the argument that every woman with an unintended pregnancy would obtain an illegal abortion.
Look at the years before Roe v. Wade...women who "got pregnant"...got married. Sometimes the marriages worked, sometimes not. I don't think you want to make the argument that it is better for a
child to be aborted than to end up a victim of a broken home.
And nowadays, single motherhood is not only tolerated, it is almost revered, especially by feminists who have no use for men.
Question asked and
January 26, 2009 - 14:33 ET by Jack BauerQuestion asked and answereed above. Twice. Once by me.
The legal concept known as EX POST FACTO --
Makes no difference to me that you keep embarrassing yourself with your lack of basic knowledge. Or reading ability, apparently.
But I would think it matters to you.
Answer it.
January 26, 2009 - 15:09 ET byJack Bauer,
What penalties should a mother, who has had an illegal abortion, receive?
Odd Job
OJ Simpleton, what is your point?
January 26, 2009 - 15:39 ET by upcountrywaterSharia law?
FREEDOM
odd job is a (Democrat)
That should be for the states to determine.
January 26, 2009 - 15:48 ET by MightyMouth"There are two types of people in this country; those who provide freedom and those who enjoy it." MM says...
MM...I feel the same
January 26, 2009 - 16:42 ET by bigtimerMM...
I feel the same way...about all of this.
It should be up the the States...period.
Btw...all 57 of them to-boot.
OJ Your damn right those
January 26, 2009 - 14:48 ET by TOEOJ
Your damn right those are serious charges! Are you threatning to kill your accuser. Is that your response? What law can you site?Of course ,if you have a guilty concsience and demand satisfaction on a personal level, I'm sure we can arrange something . You've gone from asking a question to threatning threatning the responders. This is what happens to those who paint themselves in a corner, they panic.
Just asking a question...no need to panic.
January 26, 2009 - 15:15 ET byTOE,
If society classifies abortion as illegal, society needs to be able to punish the perpetrators of the crime, correct? I laid out some of the definitions of possible crimes being committed by the mothers? Too harsh? I thought abortion is murder. If not, than what is it? What's the consensus of the anti-abortionists?
Odd Job
OJ ,It is murder. Or should
January 26, 2009 - 15:28 ET by TOEOJ ,It is murder. Or should I pretend "not necessarrily" ? I'm not judging on this punishment. The ultimate Judge will take care of that.On the other hand, I'll be happy to provide evidence of torn-off limbs and sucked-out brains, and the sounds of it happening, to a jury, and let them decide. How about you?
Or would you suppress the evidence?
By all means...
January 26, 2009 - 15:37 ET byTOE,
I think when you drag the woman before the court and the jury, you should be able to present all the evidence, the pictures, the devices, and any tapes of the actual procedure. No need to obstruct justice. If you were on the jury, it could happen, what would be the verdict and the punishment?
Odd Job
More smokescreen Oddlob
January 26, 2009 - 15:40 ET by cocodrieWhy do you hate babies and want them murdered? Jesus Loves You
OJ Sorry,no. Not falling
January 26, 2009 - 15:52 ET by TOEOJ
Sorry,no. Not falling for that .I want to hear her side of it first.Want to help me out on that? 1st time? 4th time? Maybe to help out with the "stimulus package"? Maybe to prevent migraines?
Go ahead, I'm all ears
It's difficult to say
January 26, 2009 - 15:34 ET by danebramageIt's difficult to say exactly what the penalty should be. That's something that needs to be hammered out by the Legislature. But there should definitely be severe criminal penalties assessed against the mother who either kills her child herself or who conspires with another (e.g. a doctor) to kill her child.
As in all crimes, circumstances must be weighed before finally assessing the penalty, but yes, in general they should be jailed like any other murderer. The more severe punishment, however, should go to the doctor or other person who conspires with her.
Okay...
January 26, 2009 - 15:41 ET bydanebramage,
You are now a legislator...what penalty would you "hammer" out for the woman? Death Penalty? Life without Parole? Would it satisfy the anti-abortionists?
Odd Job
→ No OddJob
January 26, 2009 - 15:46 ET by Cool ArrowEliminating the availability of abortions would satisfy anti-abortionists.
That's the problem with the "War on Drugs". We'd much rather eliminate the accessibility. Much cheaper than incarcerating drug addicts.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
Odd Job
January 26, 2009 - 16:05 ET by choselife3xSince you're throwing out side issues here, what is the difference in your eyes between a woman who kills a baby before it is born, and one who kills it afterwards?
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
→ That's easy cl3x
January 26, 2009 - 16:17 ET by Cool ArrowHe's in favor of the Obama Plan.
As long as the mother wants it dead, it's dead.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
The Constitution answers your strawman...
January 26, 2009 - 14:08 ET by c5thenArticle 1, Section 9:
"No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed"
Once something becomes illegal that used to be legal, the penalties ensue from that point forward, not for past actions.
Hey, I got the wrong "CHANGE"!
Alan Keyes / Sarah Palin - 2012
Fine...
January 26, 2009 - 14:32 ET byc5then,
What penalties should the mothers, who have illegal abortions preformed after the "law" is passed, receive?
As a side note, if abortion is considered murder...aren't you allowing former murderers to get away with a murder? Murder has no statute of limitations...hmmm. Messy, isn't it?
Odd Job
O.J.: Let me see if I
January 26, 2009 - 14:49 ET by QueenMumO.J.: Let me see if I understand your point. Are you asking if women who had abortions prior to Roe v. Wade would be prosecuted? I'd want to know what the law said on the issue at the time. To be fair, one must argue this strictly from a legal perspective. Was abortion named as a form of murder? Who was held liable? The doctor or the mother-to-be? And I don't think that the statute of limitations argument holds any water.
I thought I was pretty clear...
January 26, 2009 - 15:26 ET byQueenMum,
I'm sure the issue you raise could or would be addressed at a later date. Probably by someone who thought the woman murdered their child/grandchild/sibling...
I'll clarify.
Anti-abortionists get their wish...Abortion is now-illegal. A pregnant women decides to have an abortion after the law is passed. Negating the doctor's involvement or anyone else, what punishment should the woman receive? Will the punishment satisfy the most virulent anti-abortionists?
Odd Job
Oddjob
January 26, 2009 - 15:37 ET by cocodrieWhy are you so hateful toward unborn babies?
What did they do to you?
Why do you want them all dead?
All the questions you ask are to divert attention from the fact that every abortion results in a murdered baby.
Jesus Loves You
Scratching my head...
January 26, 2009 - 15:50 ET byCocodrie,
1. wrong.
2. nothing
3. I don't.
Not diverting any attention from the innocent...just asking what you do with the women who commit the offense you describe as murder.
I've noticed you have not answered the question...are you trolling?
I've stayed on topic, asking a question on the issue of what if abortions were made illegal and what to do with the women who perpetuated the crime...you are just trying to be a distraction.
Odd Job
I have answered your question Oddjob.
January 26, 2009 - 16:00 ET by cocodrieI have answered your question Oddjob.
The answer is THE GOAL IS AN END TO THE MURDER OF BABIES NOT THE PROSECUTION OF THE WOMAN.
Your answers are LIES. If you don't hate babies, why do you want them murdered?
By supporting abortion you sre calling for their death by torture.
THAT IS HATRED!!!!!!!!!
Jesus Loves You
Why would they stop?
January 26, 2009 - 16:10 ET byCocodrie,
If a women feels no guilt at having an abortion, how do stop her from achieving her mission?
This is a question that needs to be answered without emotion. Settle down for a moment and answer the question. What do you do with the women who perpetuate the crime?
Odd Job
Oddjob, crime and sin
January 26, 2009 - 16:52 ET by cocodrieOddjob, crime and sin will always be with us. There in no earehly or heavenly reason we should approve of them by government edict or pay for them with tax money.
Jesus Loves You
Exploiting words
January 26, 2009 - 16:12 ET by KC MulvilleI can't help but notice that you're exploiting the emotional power of the word "murder." Your obvious point is that if we outlaw abortions, you think it forces us to put the unwed mother in front of a firing squad, which would be cruel and unpopular. But we keep responding that although we oppose abortion, we understand that there are plenty of mitigating circumstances which therefore mitigate punishment.
You say crime, moral decay, murder ... those are emotionally exploitive words. We're saying that we can address abortion, giving the circumstances the respect they deserve, without being pushed into narrow but extreme positions.
This issue deserves more respect than tossing out moral grenades.
The slippery slope of emotive response.....
January 26, 2009 - 19:14 ET by HillbillyKingI agree with your observation KC.
However, I feel having a discussion with an absence of "moral grenades" (good one, btw) is rather difficult to obtain. Both sides of this debate are indoctrinated to employ emotive language and phrases to disable the critical thinking process.
Anyways, just my 2 cents.
If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you.
Don Marquis 1878-1937
Agreed
January 26, 2009 - 22:18 ET by KC MulvilleYour two cents make sense to me.
You're missing the key point here
January 26, 2009 - 15:46 ET by moderncommentaries83The pro-life movement is not about prosecuting the women. It's about helping them - when faced with crisis pregnancies - choose life. Or helping them heal from an abortion...something pro-abortion people have declined to do.
An overwhelming majority of pro-lifers realize and recognize that women are the victims of a predatory, selfish, heartless abortion industry.
So you're assertion that we want women to go to jail is nothing more than fear-mongering.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Whassat?
January 26, 2009 - 16:01 ET by choselife3xSounded like someone said my name.....
Speaking of key points, whatever happened to stopping the 'slaughter of innocents'? Just what does Obama mean by 'innocent'?
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Really...?
January 26, 2009 - 16:01 ET byMC83,
If the pro-life movement is not about prosecuting the women, then why does the pro-life movement pursue making abortions illegal? If abortions are to be made illegal without a penalty attached to the crime, why continue to pursue this course of action? To feel good? If the perpetrators of a crime know they will never be prosecuted, why would they stop committing the crime?
Odd Job
Oddjob
January 26, 2009 - 16:06 ET by cocodrieWe want abortions illegal to prevent the murder of babies.
Are you totally incapable of understanging english?
Jesus Loves You
→ coco
January 26, 2009 - 16:12 ET by Cool ArrowOJ is trying to do one of two things:
Don't much care which of these two angles OJ is coming from. I just can't bring myself to the same conclusions OJ is attempting to extract.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
No penalty attached...
January 26, 2009 - 16:13 ET byCocodrie,
...it doesn't matter if it's illegal.
Abortions will continue.
Odd Job
Using that logic
January 26, 2009 - 16:38 ET by choselife3xWe might as well not have ANY laws.
After all, laws don't stop people from murdering, stealing, and raping so why have laws against them?
I'm waiting......
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
Abortionists, not women
January 26, 2009 - 16:10 ET by moderncommentaries83Did I say there should be no penalties?
Nope. I didn't. But the penalties should lie with the doctors who perform illegal abortions.
For someone who's so hyper about a "woman's right to choose", you seem hellbent and determined to figure out a way to persecute them, when that's not what pro-lifers want.
In other words, your outrageous assertion that women would be thrown in jail shows just how weak your faith in abortion actually is.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Read through the comments...
January 26, 2009 - 16:19 ET byMC83,
I'm asking the pro-lifers, what do you do with the women who perpetuated the crime?
It's a given that the doctors and anyone else would be prosecuted...that's not what I asked.
"In other words, your outrageous assertion that women would be thrown in
jail shows just how weak your faith in abortion actually is."
Really? I'm not throwing them in jail, the pro-lifers would.
Odd Job
OJ
January 26, 2009 - 16:34 ET by TOEOk OJ,
If it were a crime,the punishment would have to suit the degree of the crime. If it is never a crime, then it becomes a license. A license to kill. This is what pro-lifers cannot stomach, the license to kill an innocent human being. And you haven't even offered any extenuating circumstances, which , from the tone of this forum, many might tend to be more sympathetic to some cases. But as in most simplistic humanist arguments, the least whiff of judgementalism by anyone disqualifies the resistors to this licentiousness. Maye its a misdameanor, maybe its a traffic ticket. But no, that is even too- much for the pro-abortionists.The game is up.
situational ethic argumenys
Encore monsieur Oddjob
January 26, 2009 - 16:44 ET by cocodrieJe veux prevenier les assinier des bebes.
Pourquoi est-ce que vous detester les bebes?
Jesus Le Bon Saviour aimes vous.
O.J.: I think this
January 26, 2009 - 16:19 ET by QueenMumO.J.: I think this particular comment reveals what you think about those who are pro-life. To those who are pro-life, it's about promoting the idea that a baby in the womb is a human being with the same rights as any other human being. Given today's technology, simply educating the public about the course of gestation would go a long way toward stopping abortions. But the political left has taken ownership of abortion and does everything it can to squelch the truth. I'm reminded of a case here in Ohio where a young woman murdered her two small children. She'd had 3 abortions prior to giving birth to these children. She was declared innocent by reason of insanity for killing her children. Who's to say that in her mind it was no different than killing the others before they were born. We have to move away from the culture of death that tells us that whether a person is a human being is dependent on whether we want them around or not.
I don't think anyone who's pro-life would oppose punishment under the law for someone who would violate an anti-abortion statute. Again, if you choose to leave the doctor out of the equation, you're setting up an unrealistic standard. If abortion is illegal, the doctor is violating the same law and is perhaps even more culpable by providing the means and the opportunity.
Thank you Queen Mum
January 26, 2009 - 16:27 ET by cocodrieYou said it a lot better than I did. Jesus Loves You
As usual, you continue to purposefully avoid the point.
January 26, 2009 - 17:15 ET by BlondeIf the pro-life movement is not about prosecuting the women, then why does the pro-life movement pursue making abortions illegal?
To stop abortions on demand.
Since you're the one pressing the argument, why don't you do a little bit of research and tell us (cite sources) how many women in the U.S. were prosecuted in, oh say, the ten years before Roe v. Wade became the law of the land.
If the perpetrators of a crime know they will never be prosecuted, why would they stop committing the crime?
Because abortions will be unavailable and risky. Read up on this as well. Women will go offshore for an abortion, or carry the pregnancy to term, with two options, keep the child or give the baby up for adoption.
The really sad part of abortion is that it is the stupidest and most destructive form of birth control on the planet. By removing abortion-on-demand as an option, men and women will be forced to be pro-active in their choices of birth control.
Two words for you: Personal responsibility.
O.J.: Whether or not the
January 26, 2009 - 16:03 ET by QueenMumO.J.: Whether or not the punishment "satisfies the most virulent" etc. should not be a consideration. In America we have the concept of cruel and unusual punishment. We don't punish criminals according to the wishes of the "most virulent" in our society. I guess you've not paid attention to those who've already answered your question according to how the legal system already operates.
Further, how do we answer your question if we "negate the doctor's involvement"? It's obvious you're looking for that "Aha!" answer. You know - the one that gives you the moral high ground? But if you want to argue on the basis of how the law would operate, you must accept the answers which have already been presented.
Rediculous again
January 26, 2009 - 14:51 ET by cocodrieRediculous again Jesus Loves You
OJ, Here is a deal. I'll
January 26, 2009 - 14:19 ET by TOEOJ, Here is a deal. I'll address your rhetorical punishment question as soon as you stop forcing me to pay for , with my taxes ,the killing of infants. Agreed?
????
January 26, 2009 - 14:38 ET byTOE,
Okay...no more public funding. Of course, there would be no public funding for the killing of infants if a"law" were passed on making abortion illegal, correct?
So, penalties for the mothers would be...?
Odd Job
Oddjob you win
January 26, 2009 - 14:49 ET by cocodrieOddjob you win the cigar for the most asinine question of the day.
To collect see Slick willie, he will give it to you personally.
Jesus Loves You
O.J.: I feel that this
January 26, 2009 - 14:22 ET by QueenMumO.J.: I feel that this question ignores the fact that the argument for abortion stems from the idea that women would be forced to resort to the old "back alley abortions". I don't think that this argument applies today. First of all, birth control is affordable and available to any and all who want it. Secondly, out of wedlock pregnancy no longer carries the social stigma it once did. I will admit to being on the fence re: the problem of pregnancies which are a result of rape or incest. Although, it is my belief that prompt medical attention after such acts should preclude the need for abortion. But I'll admit some ignorance as to whether or not my medical knowledge is sound on this particular aspect.
To answer your question: I would suggest that the doctor involved would have primary responsibility for taking the life of the unborn child. Without the doctor's participation, the abortion doesn't happen. If a woman chooses some sort of self-help method, who's going to know unless she develops complications and must seek medical attention? In such a case, I suspect she'll get off on a plea of "innocent by reason of insanity". Otherwise, I really can't say what the punishment would be. I'd leave that up to the courts to decide. I see no reason why a standard cannot be established for a reasonable sentence based on the circumstances.
The fact is that abortion was legal to some extent prior to Roe v. Wade. I know this from personal experience. No, I didn't have one. But I was offered the option by a reputable Ob-Gyn when it was feared that I'd contracted Rubela. Turned out I didn't get Rubela and the final outcome of the pregnancy is now a contributing member of society.
Thanks...
January 26, 2009 - 14:55 ET byQueenMum,
I appreciate your thorough response. You said it's up to the courts to decide a punishment. The courts follow the laws determined by the lawmakers. As a constituent, you vote for your lawmaker. It comes down to you in deciding on what type of penalty should be handed down, thumbs up or down on a lawmaker who decides to punish.
Also, your statement...
..."out of wedlock pregnancy no longer carries the social stigma it once did."
Because of Palin's kid? I thought most conservatives were against "out of wedlock" pregnancies? Doesn't this add to the moral decay of the country?
As for your last thoughts...I'm glad you had a choice. All women should have the ability to choose their own options, correct?
Odd Job
The legality of the whole
January 26, 2009 - 15:09 ET by TOEThe legality of the whole personal choice matter is unfortunate,but reality. But do not legally bind me to pay for it !!!!!!!!! And don't pretend tax dollars are not directly and indirectly being used for this purpose.Re-read the history of abolitionists and their opposition! Before we contend the greater issue, I abhor having to subsidise your position in the interem.
Out of wedlock pregnancies
January 26, 2009 - 15:20 ET by moderncommentaries83Most conservatives are against out of wedlock pregnancies. Because it does cause problems in society. Children of single parent homes have far greater problems than children from two-parent homes.
However, anyone who is also pro-life has to acknowledge that a woman pregnant out of wedlock is doing the right thing by having the baby. Not necessarily keeping and raising the child herself, but giving him the chance at life.
Do you get jerks who think pregnant women who aren't married should be shuttled off to an island somewhere? Yeah. But there are jerks in all walks of life.
The notion that it's better to kill a child is just wrong.
With the rare (as in less than 3% of all abortions) instance where a child is conceived because of rape and/or incest, a woman does have a choice. She can choose not to have sex at all (abstain) or have sex and contracept/not contracept and risk that she might get pregnant. Condoms and pills do not have a 100% success rate at preventing pregnancy (same for preventing STDs). She can also choose to have a relationship with a decent man, or a scumbag. Women have lots of choices.
But after the woman willfully engages in a sexual act that creates another separate, unique human being, she no longer has the right to choose if that wholly separate individual has the right to life or not because it might inconvenience her.
I also believe that abortion laws unjustly deny men their parental rights. If a man gets a woman pregnant, doesn't want the child, but she has him and wants child support - the man more often than not has to pony up.
If a man gets a woman pregnant and she doesn't want the child, but he does, she can go and have an abortion and he doesn't have any legal recourse to protect his rights as the father of that child.
All abortion (and contraception, ultimately) have done is taken the onus off men to treat women respectfully and to take responsibility for the welfare of a woman and her child. It has also stopped holding women accountable for shacking up with abusive losers rather than finding a suitable man to support her.
In the grand scheme of things, out of wedlock births are not ideal, but they're not even in the same universe as the evil known as abortion.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
Out of wedlock moral decay
January 26, 2009 - 15:54 ET by KC MulvilleNo. Pro-life is a whole different attitude. Unlike Obama's attitude, if you get pregnant when you're not willing to have a baby, the baby isn't the mistake. The baby isn't "moral decay." The mistake was having the sex in the first place.
That's why abortion doesn't "solve" anything. It smothers the result of the decision, but doesn't address the decision itself. That's an important distinction. That's why pro-lifers can vigorously oppose unwed pregnancy ... but when a pregnancy happens, pro-lifers can instantly promote the welfare of the baby, as well as the mother, without contradiction.
* * * * *
As for your last comment, you fail to distinguish between the ability and the morality of a choice. Just because you have several options doesn't mean that all options are equally moral. They may be equally possible, but not equally moral.
Right, KC
January 26, 2009 - 17:26 ET by BlondeAnd being "forced" to have a baby isn't "punishment" either, a la The One.
But having an abortion is sure to cause punishment of one sort or another, somewhere down the road. As a woman who came of age after Roe v. Wade, I can't tell you how many women of my aquaintance have had abortions, and each and every one of them regrets it to this day. Some ruined their bodies, and are barren when a child became "convenient". Some are haunted by "what if".
And actually, I have a friend who's a bit older, when we were single, she had to be verrryyy careful with the "toy boys"....as she'd had a son she'd given up to adoption at an early age. We'd laugh about it...but I'm sure it was positive for her to know that she hadn't killed a child.
Agreed
January 26, 2009 - 22:25 ET by KC MulvilleIt's funny - so many of us have experiences concerning abortion, and yet the media only broadcasts the stories that support abortion. The moral world is so much larger, and so much more interesting, than what the media gives us.
Why in the world would you bring SP's kid into it?
January 26, 2009 - 15:57 ET by thebutlerdiditWhy name any one person? If you want to name one to personalize your little Q & A, perhaps you would like to use my daughter, how's that? I'm pretty sure that my grandchildren wouldn't mind if you did.
Bringing the government in to run Wall Street is like saying, "Dad burned the dinner, let's get the dog to cook." PJ O'Rourke
→ butler
January 26, 2009 - 16:00 ET by Cool ArrowOJ knows the pressure points. The obvious ones anyway.
Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country - Khalil Gibran
O.J.
January 26, 2009 - 17:58 ET by QueenMumIn response:
..."out of wedlock pregnancy no longer carries the social stigma it once did."
Because of Palin's kid? I thought most conservatives were against "out of wedlock" pregnancies? Doesn't this add to the moral decay of the country?
As for your last thoughts...I'm glad you had a choice. All women should have the ability to choose their own options, correc
1. The fact that out of wedlock pregnancy no longer carries a social stigma has nothing to do with the fact that Sarah Palin's daughter got pregnant out of wedlock. What a stupid suggestion, O.J. As if all of a sudden conservatives decided that sex outside of marriage is okay because Sarah Palin was the Republican candidate for V.P. Conservatives such as myself have always been opposed to sex outside of marriage. This doesn't mean that we think it won't happen or that we turn our backs on unwed mothers. There but for the grace of God go I. But our society as a whole has abandoned the idea that sex should be reserved for marriage - primarily as a result of the availability of birth control. Once young single men and women got used to the idea that they could have sex without the consequences of pregnancy, the moral underpinnings were forgotten. This is where the moral decay began. When marriage became a mere formality, sex became a national sport, and the idea of children living in a traditional family with a mother and father who were committed to each other became just another "option".
2. Having a choice: I was offered an option. There was no choice to be made. In fact, I was very upset that my Ob-Gyn suggested that I could have an abortion if I wanted. Even if I had developed Rubella and my unborn baby was effected, I would have continued with my pregnancy. I never felt it was my "choice" to decide whether my child should be allowed to be born. I don't believe any woman has the right to decide to kill her unborn child as an "option" except in the case where the mother's life may be in imminent jeopardy. In fact, I don't think I'd even want to contemplate making a "choice". You know, the abortion crowd always likes to point out that, for many women, the "choice" is a difficult decision to make. Why is that? Shouldn't be if one truly believes that the unborn child is not a human being. We're all better off when women - who are the ones who nurture life itself - aren't given this "choice" to make.
P.S. Since this has turned into a "dead horse" discussion, I'm done.
Ex post facto is hardly a
January 26, 2009 - 14:24 ET by Jack BauerEx post facto is hardly a mystery to most people with a passing knowledge of English Common Law, upon which US Jurisprudence is based.
If you don't know that, ever wonder what else you don't know?
Even in the present tense
January 26, 2009 - 14:31 ET by KC MulvilleThat's a matter of social negotiation.
Within the legal definitions of homicide, we reserve the right to make distinctions. The concept of "degree" is important. First degree murder is the punishment for the most heinous of murders, like the murder of a cop. Then we have second or third degree homicides, like manslaughter, etc. All of them are unjustified homicides (i.e., society considers them wrong), but we can make distinctions about what how to punish them. We can have as many degrees as we want. We could make abortion a "fifth degree" homicide, and come up with any punishment that society decides to attach. I'd argue that it's up to society to haggle out.
I suspect that few Americans are eager to retaliate harshly against a young, unwed, poor mother. It's a false choice to claim that if you outlaw abortion, you necessarily condemn all girls to a life behind bars, because that's an empty scare tactic. On the other hand, I don't want to encourage it by paying for it with public funds.
In the end, we would haggle among ourselves how we wish to handle it.
KC: Well put.
January 26, 2009 - 14:37 ET by QueenMumKC: Well put.
Most women are victims
January 26, 2009 - 14:39 ET by moderncommentaries83Almost as much as the unborn, most women who have abortions are victims. Victims of a culture that lies and tells them it's their "right" to abort. Victims of abusive spouses, boyfriends, lovers who force them to abortion. Victims of selfish families and friends who take them to abortion clinics and leave them no choice.
More than 2/3 of women who have had abortions report being forced or coerced to do so in some way, shape, or form.
And when they walk out of the abortion clinic, the staff doesn't give a crap if they have a mental breakdown and kill themselves, or if they're rendered infertile, or if they suffer multiple miscarriages post-abortion, or if they need counseling and regret their abortion.
There's a reason why many, many, many women show up at pro-life marches and rallies with signs reading, "I REGRET MY ABORTION." They do. They were sold a bill of goods and it turned out to be a lie.
The people who should go to jail are the abortionists. And the complacent members of our culture, including politicians, who fight for this evil "right" without shame. Not the women.
Most pro-lifers would agree with me.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam
ModCon
January 26, 2009 - 16:10 ET by thebutlerdiditWhile I appreciate your deep concern for women, I will have to respectfully disagree with your premise that these women are victims. Life is about choices. I was married to a mentally deranged psychopath. He nearly killed me, more than once. Was I a victim? NO.Even though I did have to flee the state, hide from him, etc. My teenage daughter got pregnant. Was she a victim? NO. Should anyone feel sorry for either one of us? NO. Unless a woman is raped by a stranger, then she has put herself in the position that leads to her choice. Do most women who have abortions have depression and problems with their decision? YES. So, the only people who really deserve pity are the babies who are murdered by abortion. As I have said here before, I have held someone's hand during an abortion, back in my young days. I believed that women should have a choice back then. It only took being there, feeling like an accessory to murder, watching this heinous act occur for me to quickly change my views, for life. I can only speak for myself, but I have no pity for people who murder their children, whether they are inside or outside of the womb.
Bringing the government in to run Wall Street is like saying, "Dad burned the dinner, let's get the dog to cook." PJ O'Rourke
MC83
January 26, 2009 - 21:32 ET by choselife3xThank you for that post. Very good points.
Women in abusive situations should go to a church or crisis pregnancy support center. We all make our own choices.
In order to be pro-choice, one must first be born. Ah, the irony.
It would depend
January 26, 2009 - 19:45 ET by Rhymes With RightSince anti-lifers like OJ are always hung up on the penalty, I am all for giving them exactly what they want.
The proper answer? It would depend.
Oh what?
The laws of each of the 50 states and the District of Columbia regarding murder for hire. That would mean an IV drip here in Texas.
Personally, as a pro-lifer and Christian I would be more merciful -- but since you anti-lifers won't allow it, I'll settle for what you folks seem to think ought to be the case.
Blogging at rhymeswithright.mu.nu
I suppose Ms. Tomaso agrees
January 26, 2009 - 14:00 ET by TOEI suppose Ms. Tomaso agrees with Fraulein Pelosi that increased abortion is a stimulus package that reduces the surplus population of babies that are so costly to the State. Fellow citizens,when is this murderous hard heartedness going to be fought! When will the Catholic Church denounce these politicians who are accessories to murder? Cannot we hear what they have just admitted? That life can be reduced to a budget line item? GoodChrist, Save Us !
TOE: Exactly. I'll tell you
January 26, 2009 - 14:34 ET by QueenMumTOE: Exactly. I'll tell you what, I got shivers down my spine when I heard Pelosi's idea. I suspect that Hitler had some similar ideas at the beginning of his tenure as "Murderer-In-Chief". It all sounds so innocent when put into economic terms, doesn't it? Of course, it doesn't really make much sense from an economic standpoint. Fewer citizens - fewer producers - fewer taxpayers. But the left can't see past their innate compulsion to consider the American citizenry as simply victims of circumstance and rely on short-term solutions in the interest of political gain.
So write it in this
January 26, 2009 - 14:02 ET by EdhenrySo write it in this language, in quotes.
Truth: "Abortion is murder" ('maybe objectively true' = what a weasel. And it is not a complicated legal issue - privacy premise of Griswold case, which is good law, cannot be remotely stretched to killing children.)
Empathy: "Catholic charities wants to help pregnant women"
There, truth and empathy.
Where to start??
January 26, 2009 - 14:40 ET by MendolIt is hard to know where to start on this idiot's analysis.
"they are extremists and they are a minority within the hierarchy."
And this means what? You are in the minority so that makes you wrong? Need I site examples of where this claim fails in history? I guess he subscribes to the "might means right" philosophy.
"these prelates who believe that their approach to a complicated legal issue is the only approach"
It is an inocent human life, you take it, you are always wrong. Not that complicated.
"These bishops who want to turn the altar rail into a battlefront in
the culture wars, these clergy who wish to drag the Church's teaching
into the partisan arena,"
I am afraid not!! It is the liberals pro-abortionists that brought us into the partisan realm. Typical of liberal Christians. You are only allowed to drag into the partisan arena things THEY agree with. Would they apply this same standard to helping the poor? Would they complain about southern black ministers that dragged the issue of segregation into the partisan arena? Slavery, segregation, helping the poor and Right To Life all issues of the same seed -- God created us in his image and likeness, so we are called to respect that life in all of life's stages and circumstances.
The value of the March
January 26, 2009 - 15:03 ET by KC MulvilleNormally, I dismiss marches. I participated in a number of marches when I was younger and a Jesuit. On later reflection, I came to see them as pointless. (In fact, I came to see them as comedic farces.) That came as a result of my experiences, so I readily acknowledge that others might have had different experiences. For me, I've come to dislike "politics by stunt," or anything like that. As soon as someone tells me that they're engaged in "consciousness-raising," I consider them a fool. Of course, as an expression of free speech, people are welcome to march if they're so inclined. I just think they've become tired cliches, and just plain silly.
However, I make an exception for the March for Life, held every year on the same day. The reason I make the exception is that every year, thousands of people come out - even though it's been decades since the decision. Unlike most marches, which are one-time stunts, the March for Life's persistence elevates it to a more meaningful level. Like in Jesus' parable about the widow who persists, knocking on the judge's door endlessly, the persistence of the march is what makes it a meaningful political statement. If it was a one-time thing, I'd ignore it. But see how many turn out, every year, for so many years!
Has the march changed the law? No, but that's not the point of that march.
And KC, isn't it great how the media
January 26, 2009 - 16:23 ET by thebutlerdiditgives this great project, and the people who support it, so much coverage? They just really make sure the word gets out, and their viewers/readers are well-informed about what the march is about. I wonder what it would take for the black community to actually get the message that this is Eugenics, and the fact that 50 million black babies have been aborted since Roe V Wade was passed, and this is their beloved party who wants to continue to murder their babies? The Democrats don't care about the black community, they are just a voting block. And they have the Hispanics who have expanded to such large numbers, then they know they are going to have to do away with all those new babies, because they know their new Utopian health care won't be able to pay for all of these new people who will be needing care. Nancy is the new Margaret Sanger.
Bringing the government in to run Wall Street is like saying, "Dad burned the dinner, let's get the dog to cook." PJ O'Rourke
Perspective from a first timer
January 26, 2009 - 17:50 ET by Smoking HotKC I was down there on Thursday, took a day off to do it. I skipped the last two because I think marching for anything in contemporary times is not especially effective. For example, this didn't seem to achieve much, sadly. So what's changed after the 2009 March for Life? Well, Obama removed the Mexico City language from guidelines for US foreign aid. See what I mean?
The battle on this issue, if it's to be won, is not going to be won by carrying a sign around and chanting. It will be won through thoughtful dialog.
That said, if the goal of this march was merely fellowship with like-minded people, I think we got that. I was pleased to hear most of the speakers taking a wait-and-see, let's talk sort of approach to our new president. I know a lot of Catholics who voted for that man because they thought he'd be an honest broker on this issue and open to gentle correction. We shall see.
The "liberal" Catholic pro-abortion blogger will have to answer.
January 26, 2009 - 16:24 ET by CKA in Red State USA. . . to the Creator for such ungodliness.
And so will current abortionist-in-chief and pretend-Christtian Barack Obama.
BTW: The blogger may be right, in some sense.
Given that Obama just intoned that he thinks it's time to end the "politization" of abortion and end the "stale and fruitless debate," I'd say that his ears are just as plugged and his heart is just as hard regarding the unborn and just-born that he champions killing.
So he will continue to advocate for abortion, as strongly as ever, as we've already seen what he did last week.
Who among the Democrats, liberals and leftists will challenge him, even if they disagreed with him?
And the Republicans? Right.
So, unless Christians and others move to higher levels of public outcry, the abortion issue will fade during Obama's rule.
If the pro-life movement
January 26, 2009 - 18:10 ET by moderncommentaries83Because abortion is an evil procedure that takes a life and irrevocably harms another. More than 2/3 of women who've had abortions report being forced or coerced in some way - by the "fathers" of the children (I use that term loosely), by family or friends. You want us to prosecute women for what often boils down to women being unwillingly compelled into having an abortion?
Many women choose NOT to have an abortion after seeing an ultrasound of their child, or if the initial abortion attempt fails and they find later that they're still pregnant. Which indicates to me abortion is not wanted in a majority of cases.
That tosses the whole "choice" argument right there. And these women get no help, advice, support or recourse from places like Planned Barrenhood. They just move them down the assembly line, collect their tax funds, and call it a day.
Few, if any, women self-abort these days. A doctor, a clinic, a nurse, or some sort of practicioner is involved in the procedure.
They should be the ones who are punished. Just like the criminal who puts a gun to your head and makes you lead police on a high speed chase will go to jail instead of you, because you were forced to do something against your will.
You have clearly painted pro-lifers as anti-woman and, therefore, are looking for any and all vindication. You won't find it. We want to help women who find themselves pregnant and on hard times, in abusive relationships, etc.
Pro-aborts offer them no such comfort.
Aut viam inveniam aut faciam