Maddow Guest Touts Alleged Success of Pre-9/11 Legal Strategy Against al Qaeda

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It's not often I hear three jaw-dropping claims in the course of a single day.

On "The Rachel Maddow Show," this can happen in a matter of minutes, especially when author Ron Suskind is the guest.

Suskind appeared on Maddow's MSNBC program on April 22 and wasted little time making dubious assertions stemming from the Senate Armed Services report that questioned the legality of al Qaeda interrogations --

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SUSKIND: What's fascinating in the Senate report is finally clear confirmation that that specific thing was driving many of the activities and, mind you, the frustration inside of the White House that was actually driving action. The quote, in fact, inside of the Senate report from a major said that as frustration built inside of the White House, that there was no link that was established, because the CIA told the White House at the very start, there is no Saddam-al Qaeda link, we checked it out, we did it every which way, sorry, the White House simply wouldn't take no for an answer and it went with another method, torture was the method, get me a confession, I don't care how you do it, and that bled all the way through the government, both in the CIA side and the Army side. It's extraordinary.

Mind you, Rachel, this is important, this is not about an impetus to foil a (sic) upcoming potential al Qaeda attacks. The impetus here is largely political-diplomatic. The White House had a political-diplomatic problem, it wanted it solved in the run-up to the war, and mind you, and I think that the data will show this, after the invasion when it becomes clear in the summer, just a few months after in 2003 that there are no WMD in Iraq, that's the summer of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, my goodness, there are no WMD, now the White House is being hit with a charge that they took us to war under false pretenses, that's when the frustration is acute.

My question and the question for investigators now is how many of these interrogations were driven specifically by a desire to come up with the Saddam-al Qaeda link. It's essentially rivers coming together. This gets, the key issue certainly in criminal cases, intent. What was driving action? What were they looking for? What was the real impetus and now I think you have your first clear answer that affirms some of the things that we've been hearing.

MADDOW: The prospect that it was being done because of the ticking time-bomb scenario was troubling enough. The prospect that it was being done specifically for political reasons, in order to come up with good information you could spin for political reasons, is just (fists balled in frustration), yeah!

I might actually agree with Maddow on this if harsh interrogations were conducted absent the "ticking time-bomb scenario." But "because" of this? Troubling only to the bomb-makers themselves, and to useful idiots in the West apologizing for them.

This was jaw-dropper number one. Suskind gets credit for the next two -- 

MADDOW: I want to raise one other issue about the FBI with you, Ron. It's notable that one of the groups of interrogators that isn't being singled out here is the FBI. The Levin report says that between the time, for example, with Abu Zubaydah, between the time that he was captured and four months later when those memos said, go ahead, torture him, in effect, FBI interrogators walked out, wouldn't participate, the FBI director specifically told his agents not to be part of it. What do we know about that decision, about the FBI's non-role in this?

SUSKIND: Yeah, well, that's been reported some too, it's fascinating. The FBI  wanted to get in at the start. They essentially said, look, we're the experts at this. You know, CIA, you do a different job, we're about debriefing. And in fact the FBI was quite successful in interrogating, debriefing al Qaeda members which resulted in all those prosecutions in 19-, in the 1990s, the '93 World Trade Center bombings (sic), the embassy bombings.

Yeah, that "quite successful" prosecutorial approach had a chilling effect on al Qaeda, didn't it? I recall the day in May 2001 when four conspirators were convicted for their roles in the 1998 embassy bombings. Four months later and less than a mile from the courthouse, the felons' cohorts reduced the World Trade Center to crematoria.

From that day, President George W. Bush rejected the anti-terrorism policy he inherited of waiting until we were hit before rounding up the usual suspects. And while Suskind can delude himself with happy talk about conviction rates against terrorists, there's something to be said for Bush's approach of circumventing crimes against humanity before they occur. In other words, Never Again as actual policy.

Suskind went beyond this, however, with his whopper of a claim that the Senate Armed Services report provides "clear confirmation" that harsh interrogations of al Qaeda were motivated by a desperate Bush desire to show links between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

Setting aside the fact there were undeniable links between Saddam and al Qaeda in the decade leading to 9/11, as documented by Stephen F. Hayes of The Weekly Standard and others, Suskind's claim is not borne out by the report itself.

No mention of this alleged motivation, for example, can be found in the executive summary of the report, nor in its seven-page list of contents (the report can read in its entirety by following this link).

I spent the better part of last evening scanning through the entire 232-page report, not reading every word, but scouring every page for this alleged "clear confirmation." To the extent it exists at all, I found a single instance of it, on page 41 when a person identified as Major Paul Burney testified in April 2006 to the Army Inspector General --

[T]his is my opinion, even though they were giving information and some of it was useful, while we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not successful in establishing a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish this link .... there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results.

It's not only the break in the last sentence that raises eyebrows. Notice how Burney prefaced his remarks -- "this is my opinion." I'm not a lawyer as the saying goes, but I know enough about lawyering to doubt this counts as evidence of anything beyond Burney's opinion. And did you happen to notice when he pointed out that interrogations yielded "useful" information?

Suskind wasn't alone in claiming this motivation as blockbuster. So did leftist online bulletin board The Huffington Post. On the morning of April 22, the same day Suskind would appear on Maddow's cable show that evening, Huffington Post ran this story with the headline, "Senate Report: Harsh Tactics Used in Attempt to Establish Non-Existent Iraq-al Qaida Link."

Sure enough, the only example cited in the Huffington Post story (by way of McClatchy) is the same statement from Burney quoted above.

To trumpet this as the most newsworthy aspect of the Senate Armed Services report is akin to describing 9/11 with a singular focus on the weather. Agreed, it was noteworthy, but hardly the headline.


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Fools

Obama, the Democratic Congress, and the media are all "liberal" fools who will be our downfall. Remember Jimmy Carter's impotence with the hostages? These people are like ignorant, arrogant teenagers who just "know" they are right in the face of evidence to the contrary. They won't listen to the truth. They deny what's in front of their own eyes. Jackasses!

NEVER,NEVER trust a "liberal"

9-11 Commission

I guess Suskind did not approve of the 9-11 Commission report that was used to Bash Bush.

yeah...

If only we could hold hands and sing kum-bah-ya, the world would be a happier place. Well, that's what my liberal friends really think.

Unfortunately, they don't take into consideration that you're not dealing with the same level of civilization, intelligence, nor background -- all important when dealing with others. If your culture is built on hating an enemy, and you are indoctrinated into that hate-think from the age of 1 and up, and you are taught that heaven is killing yourself while you kill others who don't believe the same as you, well, you're not dealing with people you could consider to be rational, thinking and sane. These people are sworn enemies and have been since the 800's. They will stop at nothing to eliminate or subjugate us. They will lie to your face with a smile and then laugh at how gullible we are. 

You have to treat these people as enemies. The only thing they understand is force and violence. You can hand them as many flowers and blue frisbees as you want, but they'll cut your hand off. Thinking you can rationalize, reason or negotiate with them is foolish. 

If you disagree, please go to one of these countries and give it a try. Hand them a frisbee of peace. Give them a flower and a hug. Your head will look awesome on a stake outside their camp.

The monument to the pre-9/11 strategy

Is the hole in the ground in NYC.

What if BJ Clinton had killed bin Laden when he had the first chance.

What if BJ Clinton had

What if BJ Clinton had killed bin Laden when he had the first chance.

Then most likely there would still be a hole in the ground or somewhere else in teh USA.  Unless the whole mindset and intellegence network was reinvigorated and made anew to be able to stop such or at least slow it.  But without any reforms ther is no recourse.  Only after 911 and the invigorated intellegence gathering anew along with a strong military option were we able to put the "fear" into terrorists.

Sadly the new Admin does not realize this even after he has control and all information.  The Union died in November 4, 2008

Nuke em til they glow then shoot em in the dark.

You never know

What happens when you behead an organization like this. Mostly interanl politics tears it apart. I believe the first shot could have been in 1996, or years before to up to five years prior, so planning may have not been completed.

But now that the new admin is desirious of tearing down the intelligence effort built up, you feel nude yet ... 

So, in the world of Madcow/Suskind...

we pretend it is still September 10th and we go back to sleep.

And when we are rudely awakened again, the same folks that throw obstacles in the path of the War on Islamist Terror will be first in line to blame Bush 43 and the Republican Party.

Are they that stupid or that evil?

Noteworthy if it's more than opinion

We all know how Cheney set up his own intelligence gathering operation in the Pentagon when the usual channels weren't providing any kind of actionable link between AQ and Saddam.  Was the same motivation behind that strong enough to lead to torture?  Seems plausible.

Soon, with this group of

Soon, with this group of libtard looney tunes running things, there will be no inconvenient security checks at the airport.  The hate America crowd, led by Chairman Obambi and the drive-by media, would trumpet this development as how much safer we have become with the criminal dimocrats in charge.  Sick thinking but considering all of their twisted logic this may not be that far off.

You're so close

on this.  Seems the Urkelprompter's administration is letting the armed pilot program die an unnatural death, by defunding it.  Very quietly, the monthly qualifications for the pilots have apparently stopped.  Must be because we're so much safer now? 

Security theater isn't much use to any body

Unless you draw your paycheck from the TSA.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/airport-security

 

 

A more effective

A more effective methodology would rely upon the Isreali TTP in which Profiling figures heavily.

As someone who has gone through the process as employed by the Isreali's, I can tell you it will work far more effectively than what we are currently using.

Profiling...

Surely it's better security in theory than subjecting everyone to the same rigamorale, but nothing is full safe.  People need to accept that and get on with their lives.  Are you better off accepting risk or accepting a lie that risk is measurably reduced through inconvenience?  I'll take the former.  Now can I keep my shoes on please?

To an extent you are

To an extent you are correct.

We all know...? What is

We all know...?

What is it I exactly know?  What can you prove?

Cheney set up his own intelligence gathering operation in the Pentagon

Please prove to me any new collection agency, organization, or capability that Vice President Cheney had put in place.

Please tell me what assets he was able to put in place to collect Intelligence information.

Please, privde this data ASAP so I can go find that agency.....

 

Doug Feith, Office of Special Plans

I know you don't chase links, so all I can say is have a look around yourself when you have the time.

Note - Feith was niether a

Note - Feith was niether a collector, nor an analyst.

He was an undersecretary of defense and as such had no role in the collection and analysis of intelligence.  His proper role was determining what to DO with information after it had been processed into Intelligence,  specifically formulating defense policy.

Nothing improper.

BD, you are wasting your time with SmokingHot, as he...

...appears to be in the employ of our enemy in the GWOT.

He may as well be.

-Dave

This coup has gone on long enough. The time to put it down is NOW.

Soooo!

If pre-9/11 legal actions against Al-Qaida were so successful, how is it that 9/11 happened? The most of the perpetrators of the previous Al-Qaida actions were not prevented or even apprehended after the actions! What would possess a person to think that legal actions were successful?

Oh yeah, they have an agenda that they are following.

 

If pre-9/11 legal actions against Al-Qaida were so successful...

...how is it that 9/11 happened?

Shhhhhhhhhh. 

You should no better than to ask questions like that.

As Colbert might say, the

As Colbert might say, the HuffPosteriors buried the lede, because it refutes everything their koolaid tinfoil hat wearing delusional bloggers and readers believe. The argument against Saddaam was that he harbored and sponsored terrorism. From that irrefutable fact, the leftwing tries to turn that into the false claim that the Bush Administration said Saddaam was working with Al Queda and was responsible for 9/11. The Bush Adminisration denied Hussein (S. not B.) was responsible for 9/11, but still the insipid leftwing sheeple continue to parrot this false meme.

What the evidence has shown is that there were varied ties of SH with OBL and AQ, but nothing to prove 'operational ties' between prewar Iraq and AQ. 

It's also disturbing that anyone would believe that our legal efforts against AQ had the slightest impact on them. Indeed, it was because of the legal wall erected by Jaime 100 Million Dollar Freddi Mac Bonus Baby Gorelick, that the computers of the 1993 WTC bombers could not be accessed. Those computers contained the plans for the 2001 WTC attack. So by prosecuting those enemy combatants, the Clinton Administration won a small fight but lost the war to protect the country from further attacks. This is the same mindset of the left that says, it's better to lose LA than to stick an unwashed terrorist's head in water for two minutes, to disrupt that plan. Richard Cohen, columnist may believe that, but if Bush didn't take those aggressive measures and LA was hit, what liberal would praise W for his moral sanctity in giving terrorists only the comfy chair treatment?  The same sanctimony is present in the left over Truman's ABomb decisions. Oh, they cry, it was a war crime, it was state sponsored terrorism, it wasn't necessary. But if the US had not used the Bomb which ended WWII in four days, but invaded Japan with our armed forces and sustained a minimum of half a million US deaths, because of the moral purity demanded of the Left (but somehow such purity always seems lacking in their politicians, but I digress), Mr. Truman would have been impeached for his failure to use that device and that decision would have been near unanimous (except for the ANSWER thugs who would have applauded our losses and praised the Japanese insurgents).

Man, you nailed it

Great stuff, eaglewingz08, very illuminating

Excellent observation eaglewing

But loosing LA may have been the upside of the Wing-nut philosophy you so accurately describe.

WHICH PROOF TO BELIEVE?

Would it be the proof derived from trying to follow the twisted logic and incomprehensible ramblings of the sensationalist Ron Suskind?  Or would it be the proof revealed by the discreditable willingness to appear on Lesbian Hate America TV otherwise known as "The Rachel Maddow Show"?

Either proof yields the same conclusion, that to appear on or be associated with MSNBC's Rachel Maddow Show one must be a certified asshat.

leftis elite

They don't think they are better than us,

they KNOW they are better than us.

Who feels safe with these lefty elites running our country?

Hey Look,

you nailed it too.  Anyone see the report on Harry Reid's book, he put out a new forward in the paperback version.  In it, he tells of commending the then-new Senator from Illinois, BHO, on a speech.  BHO's reply was, "Harry, I've got a gift".  No arrogance there, just plain ole folks, just like us.  Yeah, right!

the gift

No superiority complex there... maybe a God complex?  No wait, as a media creation, an X-men complex.

It's true, he's gifted

The man can swoon a teleprompter off its feet like no other

Susskind and other liberal fools

Let's see the man who actually prosecuted the first WTC bombers, Andrew McCarthy said last year we have successfully prosecuted less than 30 terror suspects.  He also pointed out that both Bin Laden and SKM were under indictment prior to 9-11, but after attacks against American interests.  We issue subpoenas, they blow stuff up. Great trade.  The only reason these leftist assholes bring up Iraq is to try and cloud the fact useful intelligence was gathered through these harsh interrogation methods, therefore "tainting" them in the minds of the public and of course their useful idiots in the MSM.  Bush did this to justify Iraq, not protect America. They talk so much shit their eyes are brown. They better remember, DC and NYC are still priority targets, who you going to blame next time?

FBI performed in 1993 WTC bombing? No - it was an FBI sting

FBI performed in 1993 WTC bombing? Well, big surprise - they had advance warning of this pending major terrorist attack, and they blew it. 

SUSKIND" ..And in fact the FBI was quite successful in interrogating, debriefing al Qaeda members which resulted in all those prosecutions in 19-, in the 1990s, the '93 World Trade Center bombings (sic), the embassy bombings.

From a Oct. 1993 NYTimes report, "Tapes Depict Proposal to Thwart Bomb Used in Trade Center Blast"

Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building  bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast.

The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

Just for the record, had the bombing succeeded in it's goals, the underground explosion would have caused one tower to fall towards the other tower, collapsing both across lower Manhattan. Difficult not to understand that estimates were that perhaps 200,000 people would have been killed instantly.

Something tells me that sombody's "legal concerns," got in the way.

(;~/ gary

Well, Maddow and Suskind - did you miss what Clinton stated?

Suskind: .. and I think that the data will show this, after the invasion when it becomes clear in the summer, just a few months after in 2003 that there are no WMD in Iraq, that's the summer of Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, my goodness, there are no WMD..

Well, Ms. Maddow and Mr. Suskind, perhaps you missed it, but in the summer of 2003, odd bedfellows came to support the view that there were WMD's in Iraq:

July 22, 2003 Former President Bill Clinton on Lary King live (a story the national media skipped out on):

“Let me tell you what I know. When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for...

..I think the main thing I want to say to you is, people can quarrel with whether we should have more troops in Afghanistan or internationalize Iraq or whatever, but it is incontestable that on the day I left office, there were unaccounted for stocks.... of biological and chemical weapons.”

Clinton also did a really good thing here; he called for the country to come together and to support the effort to bring

And what I think -- again, I would say the most important thing is we should focus on what's the best way to build Iraq as a democracy? How is the president going to do that and deal with continuing problems in Afghanistan and North Korea?

We should be pulling for America on this. We should be pulling for the people of Iraq...  The thing we ought to be focused on is what is the right thing to do now. That's what I think.

Gee - one of those moments when I agreed wholeheartedly with the man. 

I wonder how many people on the left might have also agreed with former President Bill Clinton, in that most desperate of moments in Iraq, had the national mainstream media not decided the public didn't need to be troubled with views that conflicted with the MSM's agenda? Views that promoted an open and honest discussion on the larger issues.

(;~/ gary

Sic Of Media Brainwashing

The Levin report says that between the time, for example, with Abu
Zubaydah, between the time that he was captured and four months later
when those memos said, go ahead, torture him, in effect, FBI
interrogators walked out, wouldn't participate
...

If congress does not accept waterboarding why don't they outlaw it? 

Why is the LA strike aversion once again evaded? How could it have related to the interrogations? 

JDW

DAILY WAVE

When people fear their government there is tyranny. When government fears the people there is liberty.

I would like the leftists

I would like the leftists who are criping about waterboarding answer 3 questions:

1) Khalid Sheik Muhhamad was responsible for the deaths of nearly 3,000 Americans and decapitated Daniel Pearl with his own hands. Why are you whining about aggressive interrogation techniques being used on someone who has actually performed real torture?

2) If another attack was successful on U.S. soil (e.g. the L.A. skyscaper plan) and KSM was aware of the plot, what would be your reaction if you found out the Bush administration didn't get the info from him and didn't thwart it?

3) If you ban aggressive interrogation techniques what do plan to replace them with?

Khalid Sheik Muhhamad

The Red Cross has reported that he was subjected to only 5 waterboarding sessions. Ad that to the facts. 

JDW

DAILY WAVE

When people fear their government there is tyranny. When government fears the people there is liberty.