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Journey to Destruction

By Cal Thomas | October 14, 2010 | 11:26

A  A
Cal Thomas's picture

Researchers announced Monday they had injected embryonic stem cells into a patient suffering from a spinal cord injury. It marked the world's first human clinical trial of a procedure developed from such a source. The procedure took place at Shepherd Center, a spinal cord injury facility in Atlanta. The use of embryonic stem cells for such purposes had been banned under the Bush administration, but allowed under the Obama administration.

The question is why?

In June 2009, Chinese scientists were the first in the world to induce cells from pigs to transform into pluripotent stem cells. Last April, the Scripps Research Institute in San Diego announced the discovery of a new technique that makes artificial stem cells safer for human transplantation.

The artificial cells, called induced pluripotent stem cells, are made from fully differentiated adult cells, regressed back into an embryonic-like state. These act-alike embryonic stem cells don't carry the ethical difficulties of real embryonic stem cells, taken from days-old embryos.

President Obama, like President Clinton before him, claims to want to make abortion "safe, legal and rare." It is reasonable to say that curbing the use of embryonic stem cells might help make abortion if not less common, then at least less acceptable and restore a small scintilla of respect for human life as something more valuable than, say, a cabbage, or other species in the animal kingdom that enjoy the protection of law.

The answer to the "why?" question has something to do with how we view ourselves. If you are an evolutionist who does not believe in a Creator who endowed us with the right to life, you might be more liberal in your approach to manipulating human tissue for the "benefit" of others. But that still doesn't justify using embryonic stem cells when artificial ones appear to function just as well.

If, on the other hand, you think "playing God" is not good for the human race and that other ways to relieve suffering can, should and, in fact, are being discovered, you are more likely to want to control human urges to do whatever can be done in a laboratory.

Appeals to the uniqueness of human life are likely to fall on deaf ears if you are an evolutionist. Reminders of the horrors unrestrained scientists have created in the past are likely to be viewed as an aberration.

In retrospect, great horrors are usually seen as springing up full-formed. Many people didn't notice the small steps that led to the Nazi Holocaust or to the selling of African slaves in the public square. Senses must first be dulled; religion trivialized; and self enthroned before tolerance for the horrific is accepted.

After the fact, even those who turned a blind eye to such things wonder aloud how it could have happened. Awards are bestowed on those who see evil before it conquers us and try to stop its advance, but not on historians who might have sounded a warning and live only to write about it later.

Threats from foreign powers are not the only challenge to our existence. Threats from inner powers can also destroy, though more slowly and imperceptibly than an atom bomb or terrorist attack.

American novelist Walker Percy saw clearly where the tinkering with human life leads. In "The Thanatos Syndrome," Percy writes, "You are a member of the first generation of doctors in the history of medicine to turn their backs on the oath of Hippocrates and kill millions of old, useless people, unborn children, born malformed children, for the good of mankind -- and to do so without a single murmur from one of you. Not a single letter of protest in the august New England Journal of Medicine. And do you know what you're going to end up doing? You a graduate of Harvard and a reader of the New York Times and a member of the Ford Foundation's Program for the Third World? Do you know what is going to happen to you? ... You're going to end up killing Jews."
 

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Wow.  I thought I had heard

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 12:22pm.

Wow.  I thought I had heard it all when embryonic stem cell research had become an abortion issue, but now you relate it to the Holocaust? Naziism?  

But that still doesn't justify using embryonic stem cells when artificial ones appear to function just as well.

Appear to function just as well?  Where is the research to back this up?  The fact of the matter here is once we see how the test subject responds to the stem cells, we won't know with any certainty just how valuable this type of stem cell is.  And while those who are opposed may not like it, they will still benefit from the scientific and medical achievements accomplished by the research.

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ADK, the whole idea is

Submitted by Dan The Man 2 on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 3:19pm.

ADK, the whole idea is :

Many people didn't notice the small steps that led to the Nazi Holocaust or to the selling of African slaves in the public square. Senses must first be dulled; religion trivialized; and self enthroned before tolerance for the horrific is accepted.

If you cannot understand what idea is being posited then go home to your home under the bridge.

Nuke em til they glow; then shoot em in the dark
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And how many therapies have come from ESCR?

Submitted by Wonder95 on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 3:34pm.

Well Mr. Dead Kennedy, there's always the fact that there has yet to be any therapies derived from embryonic stem cells, but there are many that have been derived and used with great success from adult stem cells, along with the fact that embroyinic stem cells continue to have issues with tumors that adult stem cells don't have.  I suppose you can continue to hold on to what might happen, but considering the advances in therapies derived from adult stem cells and the complete failure to this point of embryonic stem cells generating anything useful (other than money for ideological researchers), you will be holding on that for a long time.

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You know what else they've

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 4:22pm.

You know what else they've failed to cure?  AIDS.  But you know, with your kind of thinking we should just give up because, well, other medical options exist that can sustain life with HIV for decades.

Science continues, regardless of how many opponents they have.  Only continued study with all available options will provide cures to what we need and/or desire.

Any chance you have an unbiased source?  I could link to several pro-ESCR sites, but I'd bet the information within would do little to change your position.

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Hard to be biased against the list of actual therapies

Submitted by Wonder95 on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 6:49pm.

Wow.  So was that list at the link I provided biased?  Are those not actual therapies derived from adult stem cells? And how do you get around the simple fact that there have been many therapies derived from adult stem cells, and absolutely none from embryonic cells?  Do you think that if you click your heels together three times and say" embryonic stem cells can work, embryonic stem cells can work" that it will happen?  The facts are simple:

  1. Embryonic stem cells develop tumors that prevent them from being useful
  2. Adult stem cells have the same pluripotency as embryonic cells


You can appeal to the unknown all you want, but that really hasn't produced any actual results, has it?  And based on past and current knowledge ESCR won't be curing anything any time soon.

In regards to your AIDS analogy, that's a load of crap, simply because AIDS research has actually produced something, where ESCR hasn't.  You know what the definition of insanity is, right?  Doing the same thing over and over but expecting a different result.  Seems to apply to ESCR.

So what drives this desire for people like you to continually push for research with embryonic cells?  Answer: it certainly isn't science, it's worldview.  Pro-ESCR people just can't accept the fact that it's not necessary to destroy life to cure disease.

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Do you know how many years

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 8:24pm.

Do you know how many years they've been researching adult stem cells?  50 years.  And how many years we've been researching embryonic stem cells?  12.  But because you want to make it a pro-life issue, you're suggesting an end to ESCR and everything they've accomplished, and everything they will accomplish.  

That's pretty selfish if you ask me.  This kind of science benefits the entire world.  Embryonic stem cells can become any type of cell, while adult stem cells can only create the type of cell from which it was drawn.  

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics5.asp

In other words, stop science and win one for the pro-lifers.  

You know how big a cell is?

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I know ESCR has produced absolutely zilch

Submitted by Wonder95 on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 12:17am.

Oh, please do tell, what is everything they've accomplished so far, (other than getting taxpayers to fund research that private inudustry realized long ago was a dead end)?  You have been avoiding that point from the beginning.  Please enlighten us with one therapy that ESCR has produced.  All you need is one.

You tell me what's more selfish: forcing the taxpayers to fund reasearch that has yet to produce any actual results and continues to fail, or using research that time and again has produced viable therapies with documented success.

And I'm supposedly the one being selfish...

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Did you even read the link I

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 12:21pm.

Did you even read the link I posted, or have you just decided upon yourself that ESCR hasn't accomplished anything?

It's been 12 years now that scientists have been working with ESCs.  In comparison, scientists have been working on ASCs for 50 years.  AIDS research, 30 years.

12 years.  Cancer still has no cure, and they've been studying that for centuries.  Yet here we are 12 years after the start of ESCR with the first human test subject.  

 

The Promise of Stem Cells

Studying stem cells will help us understand how they transform into the dazzling array of specialized cells that make us what we are. Some of the most serious medical conditions, such as cancer and birth defects, are due to problems that occur somewhere in this process. A better understanding of normal cell development will allow us to understand and perhaps correct the errors that cause these medical conditions.

Another potential application of stem cells is making cells and tissues for medical therapies. Today, donated organs and tissues are often used to replace those that are diseased or destroyed. Unfortunately, the number of people needing a transplant far exceeds the number of organs available for transplantation. Pluripotent stem cells offer the possibility of a renewable source of replacement cells and tissues to treat a myriad of diseases, conditions, and disabilities including Parkinson's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, spinal cord injury, burns, heart disease, diabetes, and arthritis.

You do realize it takes years, sometimes decades (and in the case of cancer, centuries) to learn the benefits of scientific study or to cure a disease.  So far your only argument has consisted of "well it's been long enough."  

I don't accept that.

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Turning it into a pro-life argument?

Submitted by KC Mulville on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 2:35am.

With respect, it's a pro-life argument from the beginning.

  • You can't start from the premise that we oppose science, period, or feel threatened by science in general. That's just a straw man, making us out to be Luddite enemies of innovation, hell-bent on stopping science. 
  • If it didn't involve the destruction of embryos, we'd be all for it.
  • Proof? We support developing stem cells from sources that don't kill embryos in the process. The only reason we're against it is because it violates life in the first place.

People like me believe that life starts from the moment of conception. Genetically, everything that is now you and me was present from the moment of our conception. We can debate that point, but later.

For now, the point is that once we consider life to begin at the moment of conception, logic forces us to defend that life, no matter how small.

And, by the same logic, you can't counter-argue that destroying the embryo will save lives. Sure they might, but at the expense of the lives of the embryos that you kill in the process. You're trading the definite death of embryos for the possible benefits (as yet unproven, by the way) to help adults. 

ADK, as you might guess, I've spent a lot of time in this moral neighborhood. I've got a lot of arguments ready to tee up, but let me pause here, in case you want to respond to any points I've offered here. 

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He's too busy dodging the question about ESCR results

Submitted by Wonder95 on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 11:05am.

KC, he's been too busy dodging the question about the mythical results that ESCR has produced to have to think too deeply.

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I was hoping I'd run into you

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 1:00pm.

I was hoping I'd run into you again soon, KC.

This is a difficult issue to debate as both of us have core beliefs that stand as the foundation of our arguments.

The question, "When Does Life Begin?" is something we must answer alone.  But in addition to that, we must also weigh the pros and cons of ESCR.  

From what I understand, the 2 cons presented are:

1) You're destroying a potential life

2) No progress has been made, so we should focus on other means,

The first is difficult to argue, since it's owned by our core beliefs.  If I understand your position, you believe a life is a life is a life, regardless of whether it's a cell, an embryo, or the growing baby inside the womb.  While I respect your beliefs, my own tell me that using ESCs, the tiniest cells that make up our DNA, to research and possibly cure some of the worst diseases and injuries known today... I don't see it as destroying life, but giving life.

The second is not as difficult to argue.  Scientists have been studying mankind's diseases for centuries, and many still remain a mystery.  But as long as there is a disease, someone will be fighting for a cure.  And when scientists discover something like ESCs, cells that can become any other type of cell, they understand the huge potential of such cells.  It may take 50 years for scientists to understand the full potential of ESCs, but I'm willing to wait.

Which brings us back to our core beliefs.  You see ESCR as destroying a life, while I see it as giving and saving life.

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~Ted

Submitted by Wrathful Brunette on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 1:48pm.

Not one single cure has been developed from embryonic stem cells. In fact, because embryonic stem cells are undifferentiated, they have a tendency to form malignant cancers.

Adult stem cells are already being used to treat many conditions, and can be harvested without causing harm to anyone. They also don't turn into cancer.

I wonder how long it will take for this thread to disappear entirely into the right margin?

Edit: Annnnd that's what I get for answering your post without scrolling up first. Looks like this ground has already been covered. LOL I think I'm going back to bed now for more recovery time. :-)

Obama's WTF 2012 campaign slogan: "A dog in every pot"
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Love you, chose.  It's okay,

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 2:10pm.

Love you, chose.  It's okay, it's possible you were posting your comments as I was typing out mine.  ; )

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How long do you appeal to the unknown?

Submitted by Wonder95 on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 1:52pm.

ADK, all you do is appeal to the unknown - what might happen.  How long do you keep running into dead ends while a perfectly valid option exists that actually works?  After a point (and that point has already passed), it becomes clear that it's more about your ideology than the actual science and the therapies that are produced.

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Isn't faith entirely

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 2:11pm.

Isn't faith entirely dependent on the unknown?

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This is why I paused

Submitted by KC Mulville on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 2:07pm.

Three items of contention:

  1. Belief about when human life begins is something that "we must answer alone."
  2. You disagree that taking stem cells from embryos destroys life because embryos are really tiny.
  3. The pluripotency of stem cells justifies getting the cells from embryos.

Let me take them in that order.

  1. If we were discussing abstract and academic notions of when life begins, we would all be permitted the luxury of enjoying our private beliefs. But the question isn't merely abstract. The answer is the dividing line between whether we're killing fellow human beings. It demands a public policy. That's the injustice of current abortion law. To the question, "are we killing human beings?", the law (Roe v. Wade)  answers: "decide for yourself." Well no, that's the job of the law. If the current law argued that fetuses are not human beings, that would be one thing. At least the law would be law, and we could bring reason to bear. But the current law refuses to answer the question, thus dodging its obligations as law. It decrees a result without allowing criticism (and therefore possible revision) of its reasoning. You can't ask the question "are we killing fellow human beings?" and say that the answer is up to each individual. That's intellectually dishonest.
  2. Pardon the pun, but why does size matter? 
  3. Healthy teenagers have strong hearts and kidneys. Those same organs would help a lot of older people survive longer. Does that "benefit" justify removing the hearts and kidneys from teenagers? Sure, you'd be curing disease for one group, but you'd be killing the teenagers. I say the principle is the same. If your cure requires killing human beings to "help" others, you're not really advancing the ball downfield, are you?
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So this brings us to an even

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 2:33pm.

So this brings us to an even simpler argument: no matter what, in your beliefs destroying an embryo is the equivalent of destroying a life.  

Where do you feel life begins?  At conception?  Is it okay for women to donate their eggs?  Or men to donate sperm?  I'm not asking to be a wise guy, I'm just curious as to how deep your beliefs are rooted.

Now onto a theoretical question: Why is human life more important than all other life forms?  Why do we demand that an embryo be saved, while maintaining such disregard for other life?

In other words, would you be okay if scientists were researching canine ESCs?  That too would be destroying (or giving) life.  But I'm unfamiliar with God's position on all other mammals, so I leave that for you to answer (if you would indulge me).

1)  I don't understand why you think the idea of when life starts is up to debate.  It's always up for debate.  At this very moment you're arguing that an embryo is a human life.  I argue that it isn't.  Much like we are only in the beginning stages of ESCR, an embryo is an early stage of life.  ESCR needs time to develop into its' own life.  The cluster of stem cells from a human embryo are too small to see without a microscope.  So where you see human life, I see cells with the potential for great success.  

2)  I think I addressed it above, but to clarify - it's not about the size, it's about what the size represents.   ESC are not human beings, but are what will become a human being.

3)  You're comparing the killing of a teenager to the destruction of cells at the earliest stage of development.  A teenager is a walking, talking human being.  A cluster of cells is...a cluster of cells.

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Human life

Submitted by KC Mulville on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 3:26pm.

  1. It's precisely because I don't know when life begins exactly that I take the approach I do. It's not that I can identify how conception brings life; I only know that it wasn't life before conception. That's as far back as I can go. No sperm develops into a human being until it finds an egg. No egg develops into a human being until it receives the sperm. But once the egg is fertilized, the development from that to an aged human being is constant. 
  2. Why do we prize human life above others? I have answers, but it would require quite a few sub-arguments (and endless philosophical treatises) to explain. For the moment, let me leave it at this, knowing that I'm leaving you hanging ... there are two kinds of morality. One is religious, in which your behavior is strictly based on rules bequeathed by a deity. The other treats morality as a "deal." I won't kill you if you won't kill me. I will treat you as I wish to be treated. Morality, as a whole, functions as a social contract. That contract has many provisions, but one provision is that I won't harm you unless I absolutely have to, to save my own survival. To be able to reciprocate in such a contract, you need to be able to make rational calculations and rational decisions. The morality contract requires, therefore, rational consciousness. Since human beings are the only known species that can make those rational calculations and rational decisions, humans get first dibs. 

I pause, since this likely could provoke response, and we don't want to bite off too much at any one time.

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Well I can't argue with your

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 4:01pm.

Well I can't argue with your first point since it is all factually correct.  And since I've made my position as clearly as I can, I don't think there's much more I can say that will contribute to the debate.  You and I aren't here to change each other's views; only to help one another understand our views. 

On point 2, I like your explanation.  And it could certainly lead us into a much longer debate (I'm always happy to discuss a number of topics with you).  As a very non-religious person I can only rely on the theoretical for myself, but also the thoughts and ideas from someone like you.  

But this does bring us back to the topic of morality, on which I can only hope Newsbusters brings back the comments from the morality forum CandanceMoore created several months back.  It's a shame to lose so many good discussions.

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Agreed

Submitted by KC Mulville on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 5:06pm.

Frankly, I haven't seen much of Candance lately. Am I just missing her posts accidentally, or did I miss something there?

With respect, Ted, I agree that we bring out ideas. But I can't say I know what yours are, with respect to when life begins. I understand that you think the smallest of cells doesn't deserve the same protection as a fully-grown adult. Fair enough, but where do we draw that line? And more importantly, why draw it there? 

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It's a delicate subject, and

Submitted by Guttermouth's Return on Fri, 10/15/2010 - 5:43pm.

It's a delicate subject, and I can only explain my position as growing from my life experiences.  You might notice I've changed my position on a number of topics since my beginning at NB, and this one may change one day too.

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Where does one **HARVEST**

Submitted by NL207 on Thu, 10/14/2010 - 6:55pm.

Where does one **HARVEST** embryonic stem cells?

The answer to this question is the answer to your own question.

I am going to speculate that if the Nazis, Soviets or anybody else had been murdering Jews for the purpose of harvesting their tissues, you would be all wrapped around your axle about it, but let someone harvest tissue from "embryos", in reality, developing fetuses for the treatment of some unrelated third parties, and you are incredulous that someone thinks this is a moral outrage.

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